Posted by Jrand55 @ 12/10/2002 08:25 AM PST

First post....huzzah!

Posted by Jrand55 @ 12/10/2002 08:26 AM PST

Please insert "know" between don't and from in post number one.

Posted by Jrand55 @ 12/10/2002 08:27 AM PST

Mr. Brockman should write to both the Lortel Archives and Mr. Fisher, as neither list this show in their database and/or bio.

I think shows stay open these days simply because the producers aren't willing to face the reality that they've thrown several million dollars down the tube. So, they simply throw a few more million after for good measure.

Posted by JMK @ 12/10/2002 08:33 AM PST

That's what I always do, JMK.

Posted by Jrand55 @ 12/10/2002 08:37 AM PST

I don't know. This morning at the coffee machine one of the secretaries cornered me to tell about the great show she had just seen -- peformances, costumes, music, dance were all wonderful. The show was Dance of the Vampires! And my boss has tickets to see it tonight (though his wife arranged the tickets)!

There obviously is an audience out there. I just hope it runs long enough to invite the Tony voters or I'll never get to see it.

Incidentally, Frank Gorshin is wonderful in Rupert Holmes' George Burns play. It's much more than an impersonation. It's a deeply moving (and very funny) tribute to the greatest comedienne of the 20th Century -- Gracie Allen.

Posted by Robert Armin @ 12/10/2002 08:42 AM PST

Gracie: Well he's not really my brother.

George: Not really your brother?

Grace: No, you see, one day my father took him out, and when he came back he had a different baby and a different carriage.

George: Didn't your mother say anything?

Grace: Oh no, it was a much nicer carriage.

Posted by Jrand55 @ 12/10/2002 09:03 AM PST

Why they stay open? Couldn't it be that some shows are appealing to an audience that doesn't know from critics and couldn't give a tinker's darning needle what they say?

I would imagine that Saturday Night Fever and Footloose and Mama Mia drew a good part of their audience from those who saw TV ads and knew the movies or ABBA, and that was about all they knew before they came into the theatre.

What stuns me about what I hear of DotV (we pronounce that "dot vee") is that it appears to be completely out of sync with the original Polanski film. Jason, do you know the film?

As for "caterwauling", my Microsoft Word 2000 recognizes BK's spelling as the correct one.

And Jrand55, what about

Joel Crothers - The Remarkable Mr. Pennypacker

Joel Crothers - Barefoot in the Park

Joel Crothers - Winterset

Joel Crothers - Santa Barbara

Joel Crothers - Torch Song Trilogy

Joel Crothers - The Office Murders

Posted by William F. Orr @ 12/10/2002 09:05 AM PST

And since BK had so little sleep that he failed to go back and read the late night/early morning posts from yesterday, I will repeat my final post here:

Ann:

Has nobody found the "genuflect" lyric yet?

The closest I know is a Sondheim song, but the lyric is not Sondheim's. It is, in fact, my own. When Joel Crothers was appearing at Les Mouches in Manhattan, he wanted to do a male version of "I Never Do Anything Twice", and I wrote him a lyric, as did his friend Stephen Sondheim. Dare I say it? Joel chose to do mine. The third verse began

And then there was the Abbess
Whose life held no delight.
The Passion of the Cross had grown jejune.
She brought me to the altar
And dressed me all in white
And, genuflecting, started to commune.

Posted by William F. Orr @ 12/10/2002 09:08 AM PST

Hmmmmmmmmm.....my choices are not as limited as I thought. Sunset is CLOSE...but I think I will take Joel Crothers Edge of Night for $1000, Alex.

Posted by Jrand55 @ 12/10/2002 09:11 AM PST

These shows stay open because most tourists have no taste whatsoever. They would rather hear ABBA or Billy Joel songs than a good original Broadway score. They want to see on stage the same thing they saw at the movies. They don't want to think. Most critics taste is totally different from audiences, and I hate to say it but the critics are usually right more often than wrong. The same thing is true of movies. Years ago people paid attention to critics. Now they don't even bother, and write letters to publications stating that the critics have no taste. That's one reason so much garbage is successful on stage, film and television.

Posted by William E. Lurie @ 12/10/2002 10:15 AM PST

I'm enjoying your responses to the topics of discussion. More, please.

Posted by bk @ 12/10/2002 11:04 AM PST

Ooops, not Winterset--Somerset. Also The Secret Storm.

Posted by William F. Orr @ 12/10/2002 11:16 AM PST

Okay, this is totally confusing.

Last night, I was told we were looking for the word "genuflect" in a Sondheim lyric.

Then someone said, no, it wasn't the word "genuflect," it was a line about seeing an image and kneeling before it.

What's the really truly true subject of the search, folks?

Posted by Ron Pulliam @ 12/10/2002 11:21 AM PST

The original question was about the word genuflect. I was the one who quoted the line (without the naughty bits) about kneeling from "My Husband the Pig". Then, just to throw in another monkey wrench, I quoted my own lyric.

Others have found the word in question in Sipos' song from She Loves Me and Tom Lehrer's "Vatican Rag". So far, nobody has answered the original question.

In other news:

Not being a fan of Dark Shadows, I was surprised to learn, while cruising around the Internet, that Donna McKechnie was in it. Did all of y'all know that?

Posted by William F. Orr @ 12/10/2002 11:43 AM PST

On the other hand...
Isn't it better that the success or failure of a show isn't decided by so few? Haven't there been shows in the past that continued to stay open even though they received uniformly bad reviews? Isn't it progress that people want to decide for themselves about a show instead of accepting the word of the "abominable seven?" I say the more, the merrier! It doesn't keep more innovative and quality shows from happening and the success of these populist shows may finance one of quality up the road. I say let the People decide--even if they don't agree with me. The People Yes! (Oh, lookee there, a Walt Whitman reference).

P.S. A CABARET FESTIVAL on Sunday got a lovely review by Don Heckman in the L.A. Times. Scroll down to SPIRITED TRIBUTE MERITS REPEAT PERFORMANCES after you click on this link...
http://www.calendarlive.com/tools/more.jsp?section=%2Fprintedition%2Fcalendar

Posted by Donna-Cabaret West @ 12/10/2002 11:47 AM PST

Ann,
The word, "genuflect" appears in the song "Auto-da-Fe (What a Day)" from Candide (Sondheim was one of the lyricists).

I don't know the show that well but from the website I found them on, the word may be said rather than sung.

Here's the link (scroll down to find): http://www.angelfire.com/de/esd/Candide.html

Posted by Donna-Cabaret West @ 12/10/2002 12:12 PM PST

Not only was Donna McKechnie in "Dark Shadows", but also Kate Jackson in her pre-"Charlie's Angel" days.

Posted by William E. Lurie @ 12/10/2002 12:13 PM PST

Maybe the producers think the show will magically get better?

I only see the tours. Hopefully this one won't be on my season ticket.

Posted by Laura @ 12/10/2002 12:17 PM PST

Re: the "genuflect" lyric

The whole matter came up the
other evening when I was
chatting with Dear Reader Ann
and I mentioned the She
Loves Me lyric mentioned
above. Some bell went off in
her head thinking that there
was a Sondheim lyric
including the word, so she
asked the ever-knowledgable
HHW crowd. Stumping this
crowd (although possible, as
proven by this week's trivia)
makes me think perhaps Ann
had a faulty bell and there is
no such Sondheim lyric.

Posted by Jed @ 12/10/2002 12:24 PM PST

In my theater-going youth, primarily through the 60's and 70's, many shows with big names attached to them would freqently close on the road (e.g., Pink Jungle with Ginger Rodgers, Frank Loesser's Pleasure and Palaces, Angela Lansbury in Jule Styne's Prettybelle directed by Gower Champion, etc.) or would close in less than a week after opening in NY to terrible reviews (Cafe Crown, Michael Bennet's choreographed Joyful Noise starring John Raitt, Nowhere to Go But Up, Got Tu Go Disco, Via Galactica, etc.) There were many shows, however, that did struggle on for quite a number of months even in the face of bad reviews, mainly because of large advance sales due to either a big star (Jennie with Mary Martin) or author (Irving Berlin's Mr. President). Sometimes even a show with a major star failed to sustain more than a month's run due to poor reviews (Judy Holliday in Hot Spot). What I see significantly different between the past an now is a) the tremendous investment that is needed to put today's shows on the boards, and b) the association of so many producers with each of these mamouth-budgeted productions. In the past you most generally had either a single producer (e.g., Merrick), or a small producing group (Feuer and Martin; Brisson, Griffith, and Prince) in charge of a production. I believe that in the past, there was more control of a show by these small groups. Merrick, when faced with the inevitable (Breakfast at Tiffany's) was not afraid to throw in the towel and go on to his next production. Today, with an army of producers, no one wants to take command and be responsible for giving up and tossing $10M of their investor's money down the drain. They hope against hope that an audience will build from the advance sale, that word of mouth will counter-act the terrible reviews, and that the TKTS line will fill the theater, even at half-price. They refuse to face reality that they have a bomb on their hands and that it would save money to close it early. They think that exposure on the Tonys (which in actuality very few people even watch) will bring in droves of tourists. In the last few years I can only recall Tom Sawyer and Red Shoes being very quick folds. Unfortunately, I'm sure the producers of Vampires will try to keep this running as long as they can. I personally would like to see it close this weekend so I can get my money back for my misguided purchase of many months ago of tickets for the 19th of this month. If I'm very lucky, maybe Crawford will be out and I can get a refund.

Posted by steveg @ 12/10/2002 12:58 PM PST

Critics are not the arbiters of not are they in touch with popular taste. Critics and I suspect many of us who love "good" theatre live in a different world from those who want to be entertained without having to think too much."Bums on seats" is the expression here and in the UK, ("buns" maybe in the USA) and is what producing an event is all about. Get a name known to the public and put them in a show that you can sell to the bussed in theatre goers and you have more chance of making your money back. No wonder we get to see so many revivals of "Superstar" with a collection of whoever is "hot" in the pop world or revivals of R & H with the current darlings of the local soapies. If it were not for the amateur theatre groups doing such a great job, we would rarely get to see anything "NEW" unless it were a pop music money spinner like "Mama Mia". Should I assume "Grease" is still running in NY. Why? Names known to the public, songs already known and it is sold to tourists who do not have the time to take a risk on the unknown.
OK. I was off the topic but I feel better! Shows don't get to open here unless they have a proven track record. Then they too are kept on even if they are not going too well. - Maybe business will pick up! "Man of La Mancha" should have closed after two weeks and went for afew months. They always use the line that it is difficult toget tickets - when you check it out, there are plenty of good seats available. Manys shows are "Presold" here so that the first few weeks are good and hopefully momentum will continue - it rarely works! At least the actors get paid for a few wekks though.

Posted by Tom from OZ @ 12/10/2002 01:16 PM PST

The trouble is, there are few stars whose presence in a show will guarantee big advance sales anymore. The few that do have this power are usually film or television names taking a fling on Broadway. I can think of only two theatre names who can sell tickets regardless of the show and one of them (Miss Bernadette Peters) now appears in revivals of shows for which she is all wrong and the other (Mr. Nathan Lane) lets them sell tickets on the strength of his name but you never know if he will be appearing at any given performance until you get to the theatre. There are a lot of very talented performers out there, but their names do not sell tickets except to the few of us "show queens" who have heard of them (to name a few: Karen Ziemba, Brent Barrett, Debbie Gravite, et al). For one thing, Broadway stars no longer get national exposure on television variety shows because variety shows don't exist. Major entertainment publications devote very little space to Broadway. So when a Michael Crawford comes along --- in actuality an English film star with one previous Broadway musical to his credit --- people know who he is and buy tickets because of him. The name Stephen Sondheim was not enough to sell the INTO THE WOODS revisal, and when the show's biggest name --- known more for having to give up the Miss America crown than for her talent --- leaves, they are throwing in the towel. Quality does not sell shows. People would rather see a former film and soap opera actress and two performers known for their teen flicks (THE GRADUATE) than a talented cast of musical theatre performers in a flawed but worthwhile French musical (AMOUR). Albee's THE GOAT was heavily discounted until The Flying Nun took over (although she is a talented actress who just never appeared on stage before - people like her, they really like her). Audiences are now flocking to opera on Broadway when they could see the same opera at the Met or City Opera because a film director re-imagined it. It's true that most shows at Encores, Musicals in Mufti and Musicals Tonight sell out, but the majority of the audience appears to have wandered in from an AARP meeting. Who is introducing the young people of the day to good musical theatre? How do you convince them to see Sondheim instead of Billy Joel or Michelle Legrand instead of ABBA? I don't think that musical theatre per se is dying, but musical theatre as we use to know it is. I feel sorry for the youth of today who will never know just what a thrill it is to see a real musical comedy. And who has the nerve to compare DEF POETRY JAM to A CHORUS LINE as they are doing in the ads?

I'm sorry for this rant --- which is somewhat off-topic ---but if I can't say it here, where can I say it?

Posted by William E. Lurie @ 12/10/2002 01:32 PM PST

And on a completely different subject: "Brent Barrett Sings Alan Jay Lerner" is now listed on Footlight Records website so you don't have to get it from the label that can't be named.

http://www.footlight.com

Click the New Releases section.

Posted by William E. Lurie @ 12/10/2002 01:49 PM PST

JMK and Others-

Jules Fisher was still attending Carnegie Tech(now-Carnegie Mellon)when he did the lighting for us. I attended Carnegie Tech Theatre Department,also. I had graduated when I Co-Produced ALL THE KING'S MEN.However it WAS Jules Fisher's first professional job.

Posted by Arnold M. Brockan @ 12/10/2002 02:20 PM PST

These aren't rants, they are well thought out discourses on an interesting topic. Nowhere on all the Internet can you find such interesting writing as here at haineshisway.com (yes, Virginia, I am tooting the horn of you dear readers). Steveg's post is an excellent example (we can add Amour to the list of recent shows that shuttered quickly) of the topic at hand, but even the slightly off-topic "rants" are so well written that I feel we are quite literary today, oh, yes, I feel we are. All dear readers may give themselves a hearty pat on the back or, if they choose, a hearty pat of butter on a roll. It's been grand fun reading these and I want MORE do you hear, MORE.

I also think that producers today have such huge egos that they simply don't want to admit defeat and they will indeed waste more of their investors (or their own) money trying to save face. One is reminded of the awful revival of Once Upon a Mattress. In days of old it would have closed in a day or two. But the Dodgers kept it open for four months, lost their entire investment (and running costs thereafter). Why? What did it get them? The Life, which eked out a year on Broadway (with half and half reviews) lost most of its investment. Only The Producers and The Full Monty paid back in full and went into profit (one presumes Hairspray may join that crowd). I'm sure Mamma Mia will continue packing in the tourists and will see profit (hell, it may be IN profit given the long-running Brit production). And the madness continues - Seussical, like it or hate it, was a total financial disaster on Broadway and yet there it is, on tour and selling decently from what I understand. I guess the point is there's no rhyme or reason to what goes on today in the theater. The days of the Theatre Guild, David Merrick, Kermit Bloomgarten, Feuer and Martin, Prince and Griffith are gone and corporations are running the show and I don't necessarily think for the better. It's getting as bad as the movies.

Posted by bk @ 12/10/2002 02:40 PM PST

A lull. We don't need no stinking lulls? Siesta time is adios, muchachos and muchachas.

Posted by bk @ 12/10/2002 04:21 PM PST

Last night I dreamed I was at Manderly. In my dream, Stephen Sondheim called because he was writing a new musical and he wanted me to be in it. It was either about Henry Ford or Henry Fonda. I couldn't tell which.

First the goldfish, and now this. I should stop eating floop before I go to sleep.

Posted by Sandra @ 12/10/2002 05:03 PM PST

Here I am in my hotel in Chicago and what (or who) do I see whenI turn on E!? Why it's Haley Mills! They are doing one of their E! True Hollywood Stories on "Saved By The Bell" - which of course began its run as "Good Morning Miss Bliss". What a treat!

Posted by Craig @ 12/10/2002 05:23 PM PST

Re: My faulty bell

Dear Reader Jed is probably
right. But I knew if anyone
would know whether or not the
aforementioned bell was
ringing true, it would be the
wonderful folks here. So
thanks for trying...I suppose
that my Sondheim bell was
ringing slightly off key

Posted by Ann @ 12/10/2002 06:00 PM PST

What's "floop"?

Posted by William F. Orr @ 12/10/2002 06:14 PM PST

Floop is a culinary masterpiece of my own creation that apparently causes interesting dreams if eaten before bedtime.

Posted by Sandra @ 12/10/2002 08:03 PM PST

A by-product of someone who is floopyl.

Posted by Ron Pulliam @ 12/10/2002 08:06 PM PST

Or not.

I got the CD of Baz Luhrmann's "La Boheme" today. It features all three casts...taking turns in the different acts.

I can't wait to give it a nice long listen-through.

The NY Times gave it a rave; the Financial Times was, IMO, "pissy".

Posted by Ron Pulliam @ 12/10/2002 08:18 PM PST

I seem to remember that my doctor suggested my medical problems were all related to the onset of middle age floop. I do like the idea of Sondheim writing a musical abour Fonda &/or Ford. Let's hear it for floop and creative dreamers.

Posted by Tom Guest (from OZ) @ 12/10/2002 08:23 PM PST

Ron: When you are visiting the Carolinas for yuletide, will you still be able to post or have you applied for leave of absence?
Laura & Sandra: What news of DR Megan?

Posted by Tom Guest (from OZ) @ 12/10/2002 08:26 PM PST

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!!

I just read in Lind Winer's Newsday review of DotV, located at:

http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/stage/ny-p2top23038658dec10,0,2846856.story?coll=ny%2Dtheater%2Dheadlines

that Jim Steinman, who did the music and lyrics as well as most of Meatloaf's "Bat Out of Hell" album, is collaborating with Tim Burton on a musical of Batman.

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!

That's seven (7) NOs. Like a runny NOs.

Posted by William F. Orr @ 12/10/2002 08:31 PM PST

The world is indeed full of wonder. I am probably very late with the news but is it true that Mel Brooks is preparing Young Frankenstein for the stage as a musical?
Jason:Have you prepared that book for the new Steinman musical yet? The world is obviously ready for more of the same.

Posted by Tom from OZ @ 12/10/2002 10:09 PM PST

Tom Guest: Dear Reader Megan is a living soap opera.

Posted by Laura @ 12/11/2002 02:39 AM PST

Oh, I don't know....maybe it's not such a bad thing that producers are running their shows in spite of what critics say. One would be hard-pressed to find much critical praise for the work of Andrew Lloyd-Webber, but his work runs now and forever. We could debate about whether that is a good thing or not, but if you are the producer of his shows, it is definitely desirable.

It helps to remember that shows are not written for critics; they are written for audiences. If audiences enjoy the show, this is more important than what one lonely, alcoholic, wannabe journalist might happen to say about the show. (NOTE: I do not mean to suggest that all critics fit this description, but really, how much do we know about these men - and they are usually men - who wield so much influence over our theatre-going decisions? If we were to learn that the above description was accurate, would it affect the way we read the reviews?)

Contemporary producers seem to be trying to make their shows "critic-proof" by releasing cast albums prior to the opening, having lengthy pre-Broadway tours, extended previews, etc.... In other words, getting the show to the audience and by-passing the critics. That way, people can make up their own minds *before* they are influenced by the critics. Afterward, there are additional steps being taken (television ads, discount tickets, etc.) designed to bring people to the theatre, regardless of what a critic might have said.

Does this mean that better shows will run longer? No, of course not. As with all such things, it means that the producers with the deepest pockets will be able to keep their shows open longer.

Even a show with the most horrid of notices will find its cheerleaders. As one dear reader has already noted, water cooler talk may prove to be favourable for DotV. And what about this review on another website:

http://www.theatermania.com/news/reviews/index.cfm?story=2886&cid=1

Is this critic wrong? Or are the other critics wrong? Or is it simply a matter of differing tastes? Or is it a matter of people being conditioned to expect and/or appreciate a certain kind of musical theatre, who don't know what to make of a new show?

The suggestion that "tourists have no taste" is condescending, elitist crap. That some tourists may be coming to see a different kind of entertainment may well be true, but this does not mean that they have "no taste". Who made us the arbiters of good taste? For that matter, who gave that designation to the New York Times? Let's bear in mind that the film critic for the New York Times was the single critic in the nation who gave a positive review to a film called "Freddie Got Fingered", which was so universally panned by other critics that it was actually a major news story.

The best case scenario for this situation is this: maybe the producers of these shows are keeping them running because they actually *believe* in them, and believe that audiences will enjoy them. This may be an idealist point of view, but I would prefer to believe that producers would run a show because they believe that audiences will enjoy it, rather than close it because critics didn't.

Posted by Dave @ 12/11/2002 07:36 AM PST