Replies: 74 Unseemly Comments
Since we weren’t home and watched the Oscars on “tape delay” (and in a little over an hour), we weren’t able to join in the posts but I read them all. In addition to things already commented on (Steve Martin’s bad material, M&M’s best song win, etc.) I have a couple of other comments.
1) Is George Chakiris sick or has he just not aged well?
2) Who were half those presenters? We had to stop tape and listen to the introductions because we didn’t recognize many of them.
3) The gowns were the most tasteful and beautiful in years.
That said, we saw William Finn’s song cycle ELEGIES while the festivities were going on in Hollywood and I urge all Hainsies and Kimlets in the NYC area to try and get a ticket for one of the two remaining performances (tonight and next Sunday). They are only $20 and it is the best theatre bargain in town. Actually it’s much more than that. Finn has written memorials to many friends… some known to everyone like Joe Papp; some known only to regular theatergoers like Peggy Hewitt; but mostly his friends and family. Yet for a ninety minute memorial this is one of the most joyous shows I’ve seen in years. His love for these people clearly shines through and each song is a fitting tribute to its subject. Of course the greatest songs can be ruined by poor singers but that was definitely not the case here. Since no singer can be singled out I will simply list them alphabetically: Christian Borle, Betty Buckley, Carolee Carmello, Keith Byron Kirk and Michael Rupert. Not only did many of the numbers (solos and various combinations) get long show stopping ovations, but there was an instantaneous and long-lasting well deserved standing ovation at the end. I have no idea why this show was only scheduled for 9 performances. We saw the 7th and final preview. It opens officially tonight and closes next Sunday. This show could easily play either two nights a week like it currently is or a full 8 performances a week for a long run. One question: when the CD is made, how can they possibly decide which 11 or 12 minutes to delete to keep it on one 79 minute disk?
As for Dish or Direct, ask them both for a channel listing and then see which one has more channels that you are interested in.
As for the question of the day, I have seen many supporting players who were better than the leads, but very few bit parts that stood out. However the classic example was with A FAMILY AFFAIR where one chorus member/bit player stood out so much that she was mentioned in a couple of the reviews... Linda Lavin.
Posted by William E. Lurie @ 03/24/2003 08:07 AM PST
Yes what a wonderful Oscar Bash it was...many cogent comments!
I too agree in general with the choices, and since I did not see all the films, I cannot speak with authority. I thought everyone looked nice. The films clips were chosen fairly well. There were some notable omissions during the Memoriam...no Herman Cohen, no John Agar...but then how are these things chosen? A few moments for people who worked all their lives in the industry is not too much to ask.
Julie Andrews A+!! What was that dance number with Angela Lansbury that we saw a few seconds of? I can't place it!
MR SARDONICUS - what a (I almost said kewl) fun movie! How did you vote?
Hmmmmmmmm....I saw BLOOD BROTHERS with Miss Petula Clark and the Cassidy brothers and enjoyed it, but there was a guy in the ensemble that was just great in everything he did. I will check my program and post his name when I get home. He might be a friend of someone's!
Also saw BLOOD BROTHERS on tour with an actor named Tiff Luckenbill who was great, but haven't seen or heard of him since!
And don't forget dear readers, tomorrow BEGINNING OF THE END is officially released!
Posted by Jrand52 @ 03/24/2003 08:08 AM PST
YIKES! Forgot. I have DirectTV and am very happy with it. However free installation and equipment is a Deal!
Both services have extensive information on their websites. BK, you might check those out and see what channels and services are offered in your area.
Posted by Jrand52 @ 03/24/2003 08:20 AM PST
Is there chat tonight? You didn't mention it.
Posted by William E. Lurie @ 03/24/2003 08:43 AM PST
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: What a splendid time I - we - had last night! Even though I cut out halfway through the proceedings, I had a great time while I was here, and it was fun catching up on the posts when I got back.
As for supporting performers... To continue Jrand's Blood Brothers thread, I loved watching Sam Samuelson, Shauna Hicks and Ivar Brogger during the Petula Clark/Cassidy brothers stint.
Posted by Jose C. Simbulan @ 03/24/2003 09:19 AM PST
BK, for your ? of the day, you know I have to go with Barbra in "I Can Get It For You Wholesale."
Posted by steveg @ 03/24/2003 09:20 AM PST
Thanks, Jose....the actor I was thinking of was Sam Samuelson...he was just so funny when he had to be, and very quick with character in other scenes...and I think he was the Assistant Stage Manager as well...what a versatile guy!
Posted by Jrand52 @ 03/24/2003 09:22 AM PST
I can't really add to this topic, but do not want to be bitch-slapped by BK. Thus, I am posting, albeit content-free.
Posted by Lulu @ 03/24/2003 09:40 AM PST
Well I was away this weekend, although I did make it home last night to see the Oscars.
I'll have to read yesterday's posts today. But I will say, I was very happy that Chicago won for Best Picture.
I had a chance to catch up on this weekend's episode of Trading Spaces and it was one of the worst reveal reactions EVER! The woman was horrified, upset, and basically started swearing. And the worst part was Laurie did her room, and it was so beautiful.
Apparently the woman hated brown, but Laurie didn't know. Although it wasn't some awful brown. IT was a nice light colour. Although in all fairness, I do think that the designer should be made aware of such facts. The woman had her mind made up and she just decided she wouldn't like anything brown.
I wonder if Laurie had known about the brown, if she would have changed her paint colour. Sometimes people think they hate something until they see it.
Anyhow Laurie's room was amazing. It had this beautiful wall unit that was brown and orange. Beautiful fabric. And a nice table. And all the woman did was swear and say how much she hated it, before walking off. I'll bet Laurie was devastated. Because the room was gorgeous.
Btw, mid-April they are having a celebrity edition, featuring the cast of 7th Heaven (which i actually watch), and the cast of (what's that show on ABC on Tuesdays with Andy Dick?). That should be fun.
Jennifer
Posted by Jennifer @ 03/24/2003 10:06 AM PST
Jennifer: Your post has illuminated my earlier point about Trading Spaces. :) People like me and The Woman Who Hates Brown (as she shall henceforth be known) should not participate in events of this nature. I know if I stepped into my living room to find brown walls and a wall-unit covered in brown and orange fabric, I'd be swearing and stomping around, too. ;)
7th Heaven is a guilty pleasure of mine; so nice to know someone else watches it (though my record with it is spotty and erratic at best, it's still the only show airing on a network right now that I can sit down and watch an entire episode of). I do wonder, though, when they're going to address the issue of Ruthie's true parentage. ;)
Posted by Lulu @ 03/24/2003 10:14 AM PST
I agree, compare station listings before making a decision. We switched from Dish to Direct TV and lost stations we had previously enjoyed. While you are at it, have you looked into TIVO? We just love it.
Posted by Jane @ 03/24/2003 10:28 AM PST
Can someone clarify something about last night's Oscarcast? We were multi-tasking with the kids on and off and I don't think I missed any major span of time, but I did not see Eminem's "song" (and I use the term loosely) performed as part of the Best Song nominees. Was it ever done during the broadcast? If not, I think that has to be the first time the Best Song winner was never part of the broadcast.
Posted by JMK @ 03/24/2003 10:31 AM PST
I didn't hear/see it performed either. Maybe it was played at the Kodak during one of the extended commercial/news breaks.
Must admit, I loved the irony of Ms. Babs presenting an Oscar for a rap song.
Posted by Jay @ 03/24/2003 10:36 AM PST
Now that you mention it, I don't remember hearing/seeing it either, although the guy who accepted the Oscar looked like he just came in from a game of pickup basketball. Barbra Streisand looked great and did a nice job of presenting.
Steve Martin's camera in the audience routine was just like what Steve Allen used to do that was hilarious. He would tell the story of a soap opera in a small town and then show a closeup of a member of the audience - Claude Hooper, town clerk who was embezzling money to support a drinking habit...LOL.
Jennifer - TS was great on Saturday. I didn't particularly like the room that Laurie did, but she did okay. I liked Edward's room best. The I Hate Brown Lady was fairly irritating from the beginning, but she was just devastated. I don't think Laurie could have done anything since her room was already planned. The team said "no brown" but they didn't really push it. I don't know, but I do agree it was the worst REVEAL ever. Poor Paige didn't know what to do! Celebrity TS should be fun.
Posted by Jrand52 @ 03/24/2003 10:47 AM PST
More thoughts on the Oscars...
BEST SONG: Please explain how rap or hip hop can be categorized as MUSIC!
BEST PICTURE: Even though I felt Chicago was flawed, I'm happy it won because WE NEED MORE FILM MUSICALS!
EDITING: Chicago should have won the award for "most OVERZEALOUS editing."
MICHAEL MOORE: I think Michael should've stopped his speech at (I'm paraphrasing) "we on this stage love non-fiction" and let his MOVIE speak for him.
SHORTS & DOCUMENTARIES: I would LOVE to see these films but there are few--if any--screenings of them. So they could get wider distribution, why, for heaven's sake, can't the major studios include one of them along with their main feature in the theatres? It can't cost THAT much more and it would be more fun for the audiences. Remember when you went to the theatre and saw TWO movies and a cartoon?
GOWNS: For the most part, I thought the actresses looked very elegant. Thank God all of them didn't wear black!
THE OSCARS: The MTV-influenced generation of filmmakers has spoken. Could M&M's best song and Chicago's film editing awards mark a sea change in Oscar voting much like rock has supplanted traditional pop music?
STEVE MARTIN: Curious to know who his tailor is? His suit never looked wrinkled. I liked his sign-off at the end.
Posted by Donna @ 03/24/2003 10:52 AM PST
I love Hayley Mills, but she most certainly did NOT look fabulous last night. Having her seated next to Rita Moreno, who was decidedly fabulous, didn't help matters.
On the other hand, I don't love Barbra Streisand, and she looked positively horrible. Never a woman of traditional beauty, she has not aged well.
And are there two more lovely women on the planet than Nicole Kidman and Julianne Moore?
Posted by Dave @ 03/24/2003 10:54 AM PST
Marilyn Cooper in Woman of the Year. The whole show was supposed to get laughs. Only Marilyn did.
Posted by Noel @ 03/24/2003 10:58 AM PST
Jane---
I have a TIVO question that nobody has been able to answer. Since you use TIVO maybe you can enlighten me. If you set TIVO to record a show that is scheduled for 8:00 to 9:00 and it is delayed because of a sports or political over-run and is actually broadcast from 8:30 to 9:30, which time does the TIVO record... the scheduled time or the actual time? Thanks.
I may be wrong, but I think a couple of our dear readers have misread today's topic. It seems to me that BK asked about bit players, not supporting performers. At least that's what his examples seemed to point up.
An Oscar question for all to ponder... how can a film win Best Screenplay, Best Director and Best Actor but not Best Picture? I have not yet seen "The Pianist", but do the sum of its parts not add up to a cohesive whole? And also, I have not seen either "Lord of the Rings" films, but from what was shown last night shouldn't it have been considered an animated film? Every scene they showed featured the two ET-clones.
Posted by William E. Lurie @ 03/24/2003 11:12 AM PST
The sum of The Pianist's parts most definitely add up to a whole and in my opinion (IMO, in Internet lingo) it was the finest film of last year and perhaps the last five years. The fact that it won those three major awards is amazing in the face of the Miramax overkill and cash flow.
And yes, our Unseemly Live Chat will take place this very evening at six p.m. Pacific Mean Time.
Posted by bk @ 03/24/2003 11:18 AM PST
WEL: Good question. It's a similar to what gets asked nearly every year, to wit: How can a film be nominated for Best Picture, while its director is passed over for Best Director? Do they think the film just directed itself? And, like that worthy question, yours will never have an answer...not a satisfactory one, at any rate. :(
Posted by Lulu @ 03/24/2003 11:20 AM PST
WEL, probably for the same reason that a musical can win Tony Awards for Best Book, Best Score and performing awards, but still not win Best Musical. While it may seem strange at first, the mathematics (and politics) of voting in multiple categories can lead to such seemingly contradictory outcomes.
And from what I have seen and read, a film like LOTR may require the Academy to come up with a new definition of what constitutes an "animated" film. With so much CGI being used in films today, some films walk a fine line...
Does anybody else wonder whether the other nominees in this category were aware that Michael Moore planned to make such a speech for his acceptance? It seemed as though he summoned them from their seats rather 'spur of the moment', to join him on the stage...
Posted by Dave @ 03/24/2003 11:23 AM PST
Bill, that was a strange LOTR clip to show and is not a good representation of the films. The "live" actors are the most important performers and make up the bulk of the film. Sean Astin was the only cast member there last night, and he gives a wonderful performance in both films.
Posted by Jrand52 @ 03/24/2003 11:26 AM PST
The only person I can rememberstealing the show was Marilyn Cooper. She was in for one scene and that was that.
Posted by Michael Shayne @ 03/24/2003 11:26 AM PST
BTW (by the way, in Real World Lingo), I know I'm a big late, but a big skeeve of mine is the current trend in the U.S. of renaming buildings and venues in order to get $$ from a corporate sponsor. "Celine Dion performs LIVE! At the National Car Rental Center" makes me picture the diva jumping on top of the car rental counter and belting away before the amazed customers. "Uh, lady...I just wanna pick up my Civic and be on my way." Likewise, the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion becoming the Kodak Pavilion (or whatever-the-hell).
What if this trend spreads? Will Prince Albert Hall become known as Prince Albert In A Can Hall? Will the Sistine Chapel transform itself into the AOL-Time-Warner Chapel? Where will the madness end??
Posted by Lulu @ 03/24/2003 11:26 AM PST
OK, before anybody has time to correct me:
"big late" = bit late
"Prince Albert Hall" = Royal Albert Hall
I thank you.
Posted by Lulu @ 03/24/2003 11:28 AM PST
JMK asked:
Can someone clarify something about last night's Oscarcast? We were multi-tasking with the kids on and off and I don't think I missed any major span of time, but I did not see Eminem's "song" (and I use the term loosely) performed as part of the Best Song nominees. Was it ever done during the broadcast? If not, I think that has to be the first time the Best Song winner was never part of the broadcast.
No, the winning song was definitely NOT performed. I do understand that Eminem decided not to perform. But they still could have had someone else perform it or at least shown a video of it/ some clips or something. It was totally bizarre to have all the other songs performed, but the winner.
Posted by Jennifer @ 03/24/2003 11:31 AM PST
One of the funniest not for real stories I ever heard concerned the recently divorced Princess Di calling Queen Elizabeth at Buckingham Palace in the middle of the night and asking her if she had Prince Albert in a can...LOL.
Posted by Jrand52 @ 03/24/2003 11:33 AM PST
Dave,
Michael Moore said in the Press Room after he won the award that he talked to the other documentarians at intermission and invited them to join him onstage should he win and to only do so, if they agreed with what he was going to say.
Posted by Donna @ 03/24/2003 11:33 AM PST
Donna: Hmmmm...I'd be interested to hear what the other documentarians have to say about that. I find it hard to believe that they knew exactly what he was going to say, and chose to stand up there and be booed anyway. Moore could be telling the absolute truth, but I have my doubts.
jrand: LOL. :)
Posted by Lulu @ 03/24/2003 11:37 AM PST
Jrand wrote:
Jennifer - TS was great on Saturday. I didn't particularly like the room that Laurie did, but she did okay.
I thought it was beautiful. I almost always love Laurie's rooms.
I found that woman to be really rude. Great, she isn't fond of brown. But she could have simply repainted the walls a different colour. But instead she whined and complained the whole time.
I liked Edward's room best.
I guess we have different taste. I thought his room was okay. And i'm glad the people liked it. But who would give a man's office a purple wall and ceiling. It was stupid. Purple is my favorite colour, and I would still not like an office that looked like that.
The I Hate Brown Lady was fairly irritating from the beginning, but she was just devastated.
Yah I didn't like how acted. I guess she just felt betrayed by her friends. Personally I understand where the friends were coming from. Laurie showed up with brown paint. However, I think the friends could have insisted that Laurie go change the colour and everything would have worked out better.
Aren't you glad that Laurie didn't take apart the brand new couch from their other room. Can you even imagine how mad the woman would have been then? :)
I don't think Laurie could have done anything since her room was already planned. The team said "no brown" but they didn't really push it. I don't know, but I do agree it was the worst REVEAL ever. Poor Paige didn't know what to do!
One of the main problems i have with Trading Spaces is I wish that Laurie would have known that the woman hated brown. Laurie truly had no idea. And she wouldn't have done it if she had known.
Also, I wish that the friends had more input. As the show is now, they can just give a comment or two. But it's after the designer has already planned the whole room. So not much can be done. And the only designer who seems flexible is Frank.
Personally I think I would be great to be on the show cause I'm not shy. ANd I know what I like. And if I knew my friend hated brown, there would be no way that I'd have let Laurie do that!
Celebrity TS should be fun.
Especially since this time I'm very familiar with the people involved. It's four from 7th Heaven (jessica biel and the girl who plays lucy, and lucy's fiancee and his brother ben). Should be great. I think it's april 12th or 13th.
Posted by jennifer @ 03/24/2003 11:39 AM PST
Lulu wrote:
Jennifer: Your post has illuminated my earlier point about Trading Spaces. :) People like me and The Woman Who Hates Brown (as she shall henceforth be known) should not participate in events of this nature. I know if I stepped into my living room to find brown walls and a wall-unit covered in brown and orange fabric, I'd be swearing and stomping around, too. ;)
Well the people almost always love the rooms. This is the worst reaction I've ever seen.
And it wasn't a dark yucky brown. It was a nice light brown. The room was beautiful. Really it was.
Posted by Jennifer @ 03/24/2003 11:41 AM PST
Lulu - while I am not sure from the reactions that the other people standing onstage that they knew what Moore was going to say, his speech was word-for-word what he had said the previous day at the Independent Film Spirit Awards where he also won the Best Documentary category. He didn't change a word...of course there he was soundly applauded and lauded for saying it.
Posted by Jrand52 @ 03/24/2003 11:43 AM PST
jrand: Yeah, that's right; I forgot. So they should have had fair warning about what he was going to say. Well, as long as they went into it with their eyes open, we can't fault Moore for blindsiding them and getting them to "stand up" for statements with which they may not have agreed. I guess they figured they'd get applauded on this night, too. Must've been a rude awakening for them. Moore, I'm sure, loved the jeers; it strengthens his position as Voice of the Common Man Who Will Fight to the Death Against the Cruel Bourgeoisie.
(And I loved Roger and Me!)
Posted by Lulu @ 03/24/2003 11:49 AM PST
Lulu---
The Dorothy Chandler Pavilion is still the Dorothy Chandler Pavillion. The Kodak is a new theatre built next to Graumann's (or is it Mann's?) Chinese Theatre for the sole purpose of having a place to hold the Oscars. I don't know what it is used for the other 364 days of the year. Can one of you West Coast Hainses and Kimlets let us know what else they use it for.
Posted by William E. Lurie @ 03/24/2003 11:51 AM PST
WEL: Thanks! :)
Posted by Lulu @ 03/24/2003 11:54 AM PST
BTW, after all of that "this is my swan song" stuff for several days preceding the ceremony...where the heck was Liz Taylor???
Posted by Lulu @ 03/24/2003 11:55 AM PST
Can someone let me know when my limo will be here to pick me up for the Academy Award ceremony this evening?
Posted by Elizabeth Taylor @ 03/24/2003 11:59 AM PST
Did Nick Redman do the ALL ABOUT EVE/LEAVE HER TO HEAVEN and the BEST OF EVERYTHING cd's that are available?
Posted by Jrand52 @ 03/24/2003 12:08 PM PST
Re: the Michael Moore debacle
Maybe the other nominees just wanted to be up on stage too :)
Or maybe they thought he would be anti-war, but didn't realize he would make negative comments about the President.
I was surprised that Michael Moore got a standing ovation when he won, yet got booed afterwards. Didn't the people there know what he would say?
Posted by Jennifer @ 03/24/2003 12:19 PM PST
Jennifer: It's an interesting question, isn't it? Hollywood is more liberal and outspoken against the war on Iraq than most other areas of the nation, so I think most of the people in the audience share idealogies with Moore -- heck, I do, too. Hence, the standing O for his film (which is of course not about Iraq, but the gun culture, etc.). However, he has a way, in his public pronouncements, of coming off as a blatant self-promoter who positively THRIVES on this idea of himself as a martyr for his cause. I think this turns a lot of people off, and would account for the booing.
Let's face it, you can still like someone who has very different views than you; and you can likewise dislike someone who has similar views. I think this phenomena is very much in evidence with Michael Moore. I know the feeling I get from him is that he just really enjoys being able to shroud himself in the mantle of Protector of the People, and he's willing to distort the truth and make big blanket statements in order to perpetuate that facade.
Posted by Lulu @ 03/24/2003 12:31 PM PST
Jennifer,
I wasn't that surprised with the 'about-face' from the audience. They were cheering a man who made an 'anti-gun' movie, but booing a man who made an 'anti-President Bush' speech. It would be one thing if he had made an 'anti-war' speech, and a plea for common sense and peace, as many others did. He overstepped his bounds, and they called him on it.
And while I enjoyed parts of "Roger and Me", I think the basic premise of the film is flawed. While it serves its purpose - to give Moore a chance to grandstand in touting his populist opinions - it certainly doesn't offer any illumination as to the fundamental economic factors that led to the problem in the first place. I haven't seen "Bowling for Columbine" yet, but I hope it does not suffer from the same problems.
Posted by Dave @ 03/24/2003 12:34 PM PST
Dave wrote:
I wasn't that surprised with the 'about-face' from the audience. They were cheering a man who made an 'anti-gun' movie, but booing a man who made an 'anti-President Bush' speech. It would be one thing if he had made an 'anti-war' speech, and a plea for common sense and peace, as many others did. He overstepped his bounds, and they called him on it.
I agree. I think if Moore had made an anti-war speech he would have been cheered. I also agree that he probably went overboard criticizing/belittling the President. I guess much of the audience probably didn't vote for Bush. Yet they feel it's unpatriotic and not right to speak so harshly (he called him a "ficticious President").
Did anyone else make anti-war statements? IT seemed most of them just talked about peace, put up two fingers, or asked for a speedy resolution. But i don't remember anyone else actually saying they disagreed with the war.
So was the audience really cheering for Moore because he was anti-gun? I really thought they were cheering for all his beliefs. And since he gave the same speech the night before, I guess i was just surprised that the crowd turned on him so quickly.
Posted by Jennifer @ 03/24/2003 12:51 PM PST
When it is not housing the Academy Awards, the Kodak Theatre hosts various touring companies of widely varying ilk. Next up on their docket is Scooby Doo in "Stagefright," followed by Michael Flatley's "Lord of the Dance." Ballet companies stop here, too, with the Moscow Stanislavsky Ballet and Kirov Ballet slated for later this year.
The theatre's layout largely resembles that of an opera house, with three tiers (that extend down the sides of the auditorium) above the main floor/orchestra seating. I estimate the capacity at around 3000.
The accoustics are awful. Since it was built to television production specs, I don't think anyone thought about natural accoustics in the house. I've been to the theatre once, to see the American Ballet Theatre do "Nutcracker." The orchestra was heavily amplified, and poorly, at that. I swore never again.
Posted by Jay @ 03/24/2003 12:51 PM PST
Given that this was such a weak year for the "Original Song" category ("I Go On" is second-rate Kander & Ebb, and the U2 haven't written a truly great song since The Joshua Tree), I'm not surprised or dismayed that Eminem won the award.
Nor am I upset that the song was not performed during the awards presentation last night. If Eminem could not (or would not) show up to perform the song himself, I would not want to see someone else perform the song in his stead. The song (like the movie) is inextricably linked to the performer, and doesn't lend itself well to being covered by someone else. Eminem's entire act is based on the personality that Marshall Mathers has concocted for the stage. The song and film are an extension of that. It wouldn't make sense to have Celine Dion perform her rendition of it....though it would make for a good laugh, though, come to think of it....
Posted by Dave @ 03/24/2003 12:54 PM PST
And Debbie Allen could have choreographed.
Posted by Jay @ 03/24/2003 12:56 PM PST
I am still in shock after the music awards. What Paul Simon looked like, his age and his history as a pop star are irrelevant. I agree with Dave re U2 and K & E songs. Emimem's was not a song. this only leaves the Simon song and the Julie T song from Frida. Paul Simon's song had fitting lyric content for its movie source and a melody. It should have won.
The win for Frida in the score category was also a bit "out there". I have only played it once and have not seen the film.
What do I know? I was so pleased that Randy Newman won last year but his entry was way below the standard of many of his other songs. It seemed like a reward!
I think Tom Lehrer wrote some years ago that Paul Simon, Randy Newman and Stephen Sondhem were the greatest lyric writers and actually understood irony.
Posted by Tom from Oz @ 03/24/2003 01:37 PM PST
I have to disagree with Tom in his assessment that "Emimem's was not a song". While it may not be a song that you like, it is clearly a song. It has a rhythmic structure, a chord progression, a lyric and melody (albeit a simple one). There is a standard song structure, employing verses and choruses, etc.
I have friends who are classical music snobs who don't like theatre music because it is too simplistic and formulaic. I would hate to see us theatre fans be guilty of the same crime in dismissing contemporary pop, simply because it doesn't fit into our comfortable definitions.
And if this is about criticising Eminem's singing (or lack thereof), you're a Randy Newman fan, right...? ;-)
Posted by Dave @ 03/24/2003 01:55 PM PST
That Angela Lansbury number asked about at the top of the notes was "Thoroughly Modern Millie" which she performed for the 1967 ceremony (held in 1968).
I was going to mention Marilyn Cooper, too. She was in only one scene in WOMAN OF THE YEAR, and walked away with it. I thought Jonathan Freeman did a similar job of theft in the revival of SHE LOVES ME, but again, it was a little more than a bit.
Posted by Matt H. @ 03/24/2003 02:23 PM PST
Or was that Angela Lansbury number in black and white that she performed with Joan Collins and Dana Wynter - "It's Bully Not to Be Nominated," a female variation on the Kirk Douglas-Burt Lancaster "It's Great Not to Be Nominated" what was also shown. That was for the 1958 ceremonies in 1959.
Posted by Matt H. @ 03/24/2003 02:34 PM PST
I never saw it, but I have to believe that Elaine Stritch committed Grand Theft Theatrical when she did "Zip" in the revival of PAL JOEY.
Posted by Jay @ 03/24/2003 02:55 PM PST
The Eminem song did not play in the Bay Area, either. Must have been a victim of one ABC's war updates.
Barbra Streisand looked wonderful!
So, too, did Rainer and Jones...especially considering their ages.
Michael Moore -- you "heard" some jeers and catcalls, but when the audience was shown you didn't see any negative reactions. A few jeers does not an "audience turning on someone" make. I'm betting there were a few, planned hecklers in the event polemics broke out...but there was certainly NOTHING shown that indicated the audience, at large, was anything more than bemused and silent.
I thought Steve Martin was wonderful throughout the show.
I think it's shameful that the first 15 or so Oscars were handed out in the first 2 hours and that it took an hour and a half to give out the last five or six.
Posted by Ron Pulliam @ 03/24/2003 04:19 PM PST
Thanks for the suggestions as to the mystery Lansbury number. I really don't recall who the other two women were and of course I didn't tape it....but since it was in b/w and the Oscars were colorcast in 1968, I am inclined to think it was Matt H's suggestion of Bully Not to be Nominated with Joan Collins and Dana Wynter.
Posted by Jrand52 @ 03/24/2003 04:50 PM PST
I'm still watching the awards but as far as I can tell Eminem wasn't there. He wasn't there to accept his award. I do think he had the best song but then it might just might be due to all the years I spent listening to rap, thanks to my boys (pure torture at the time), all the years we lived in the greater Detroit area.
Posted by Jane @ 03/24/2003 05:00 PM PST
For those H/K who were looking for Welcome to Woop Woop, there are a couple of soundtrack CD's and VHS tapes on EBAY now with no bids....
Posted by Jrand52 @ 03/24/2003 05:22 PM PST
Live Chat in one-half hour.
Posted by bk @ 03/24/2003 05:24 PM PST
Where is the chat? It's been 32 minutes and nobody's there!
Posted by Ron Pulliam @ 03/24/2003 05:48 PM PST
Chat is now open.
Posted by bk @ 03/24/2003 05:49 PM PST
We are chattering away in the chat room....please join us right this very minute!
Posted by Ron Pulliam @ 03/24/2003 06:02 PM PST
Where is everyone? The chat room is already closed -- bummer! I thought we would party until the cows came home for today is a most important day. Tis the day of my birth!
Posted by Angela @ 03/24/2003 08:21 PM PST
The film critic for my local newspaper said this morning that the song was not shown on national TV because it was too vulgar to pass the ABC censors. But I know NOTHING at all about the song or rap "music" so I'm only reporting what I read.
Posted by Matt H. @ 03/24/2003 08:39 PM PST
I was errant and truant in not posting or chatting. I got home late from work, ate Chinese food (not in bed, a BK reference) and fast forwarded through last night's award ceremonies. The gowns were great and, for the most part, flattering. It was also nice to see the return, again for the most part, of traditional tuxedoes. I thought the show was far better this year than it was last year (it is still far from the ceremonies fo years past). I need to get up in about 6 hours or so, so I'm off to try to go to sleep.
Posted by Kerry @ 03/24/2003 09:25 PM PST
I have news!! I finally have a DVD player!! Yes, dear readers, its true. I went out and bought one tonight AND got 4 DVDs--all for under $200. I'm quite proud. One of the DVDs I got was the Best of Trading Spaces, which I'm very excited about--in fact, I'm enjoying it now. I'm watching the "HATE IT" portion right now. Hehe...I love that show. I also got "Copycat," "Amelie," and "Mary Poppins," which I found out is now out of print and I got the last copy in the store! Woohoo for me!
Anyway, back to Trading Spaces.
Posted by Jason @ 03/24/2003 10:17 PM PST
Congratulations, Jason, on your new purchase! And what a great, eclectic "maiden" collection of DVDs!
-And I guess Mary Poppins is out of print - Hmmm... Do I have it on DVD? I know I have it on VHS, but can't remember if I bought the DVD... Oh, there it is! Yes, I did!
Posted by Jose C. Simbulan @ 03/24/2003 11:41 PM PST
I had technical problems in chat yesterday evening which is why I kept popping in and out (and finally popped out). I think it was the bugs in the parachat software.
Angela, belated Happy Birthday!
Posted by Ben @ 03/25/2003 04:22 AM PST
Yes, Angela...birthday wishes headed your way. :)
I always somehow forget about chat; once I get home in the evening, I'm rarely on the computer. Maybe one of these days...
Posted by Lulu @ 03/25/2003 04:42 AM PST
Don't know why Eminem's song wasn't featured on the Oscar presentation, but I find it hard to believe it was because of the censors. By comparison with, for example, "Stan" which he performed with Elton John on the Grammy awards, "Lose Yourself" is a pretty tame song.
"Stan" is about a deranged fan who eventually ties up his pregnant girlfriend and stuffs her in the trunk of his car, gets drunk and drives off a bridge to his (and her) death because his idol "Slim Shady" won't return his fan letters.
"Lose Yourself" is simply about a man who sees his dreams slipping away, and inspires himself to push on to the next level.
There is also far more profanity in "Stan" than in "Lose Yourself". Just check out the lyrics yourself. A simple Google search will reveal plenty of sites that feature the complete lyrics to both songs.
Posted by Dave @ 03/25/2003 06:13 AM PST
The reason the song was not done was probably because M&M wasn't there and unlike songs of old this song could only be done by its creator.
The decline of pop music can be directly traced to the start of the singer/songwritter. So many of these people can write and not sing while others can sing and not write. In the glory days of American Pop Music you had composers writing songs that any one of a number of singers could do equally well in their own style.
Posted by William E. Lurie @ 03/25/2003 07:45 AM PST
Agreed with WEL on both points.
I made a similar comment about Eminem's material being performed by someone else in yesterday's posts.
As for singer/songwriters, they are a mixed bag. For every James Taylor or Paul Simon, who can write and sing, there are a dozen Bob Dylans, Randy Newmans or Tom Waits who insist on singing their own material, to the detriment of the songs. What has made matters worse is the false notion that because they are not trained vocally, they are more sincere in their delivery. Wrong. Good singers can be sincere, too.
Posted by Dave @ 03/25/2003 07:57 AM PST
WEL: While I understand what you're saying, I must respectfully disagree that the advent of the singer/songwriter is responsible for a perceived decline in Popular Music. If we adhere to this formula, we must believe the music of, say, Bobby Rydell to be inherently superior to anything Elton John ever created.
Besides, didn't artists such as Cab Calloway write and perform their own music? I don't want to live in a world where "Minnie the Moocher" doesn't exist.
Posted by Lulu @ 03/25/2003 07:57 AM PST
I didn't say ALL singers/songwriters could not do both, but many of them are really only good in one area or the other.
What is also frightening is that many people tend to confuse the two. I hate hearing a singer saying "Here's Judy Collins' 'Send In the Clowns'" or "Next I'll sing Frank Sinatra's 'Night and Day'".
I remember the days when a good song ("Unchained Melody" instantly comes to mind) could have three or four recordings in the "Top Forty" at the same time.
Posted by William E. Lurie @ 03/25/2003 08:06 AM PST
WEL: Yes, I know you weren't. I really didn't frame my disagreement well.
I just meant that I don't see how "The decline of pop music can be directly traced to the start of the singer/songwriter," as you wrote. a) There have been singer/songwriters for a LONG time and b) Plenty of the worst pop music ever made came about as a result of the factory-like method many labels used whereby they employed a stable of songwriters (who cranked out formulaic hit after hit) and a stable of singers (many of whom had mediocre voices, but the right "look") and simply matched the performer to the song. Seems to me that the one-time popularity of Fabian is more to be questioned than the continuing popularity of Bob Dylan (much as his nasal whine grates on my nerves).
Posted by Lulu @ 03/25/2003 08:21 AM PST
BK -
Have had DirecTV for a year and a half now - great service WX permitting (ie, severe thunderstorms or heavy overcast will reduce the capabilities of even the best receivers). Programming is very thorough, as are programming options - for the same price as "basic cable" in NY, I was able to get basic DirecTV + local network feeds + NY sports package (we're big hockey fans, so getting the Islanders/Rangers plus Nets/Knicks, Yankees/Mets is a win-win).
Buying the equipment isn't so bad either - prices have come way down and "open box" specials (ie people who bought systems, couldn't install them, then returned them) abound at places like Best Buy and Circuit City.
Recording from DirecTV is just like recording from cable - keep your VCR on channel 3 and select the channel from your DirecTV box, etc.
Re the Oscars: In general more tasteful than I expected (especially Susan Sarandon, Babs etc), except for Mssr. Moore who really made an ass of himself. He is certainly entitled to his view of President Bush, the elections and the War, but he picked the wrong time and place to vent his spleen. Adrian Brody was perhaps the most eloquent in voicing his concerns - they are the concerns of most - let's get our people back home, alive and well.
Posted by Phil @ 03/25/2003 08:33 AM PST
And for pure class, how about Peter O'Toole's acceptance for his honorary Oscar?
Posted by Phil @ 03/25/2003 08:34 AM PST
I don't want to speak for WEL, but I think the argument he is making has to do with public perception of the singer/songwriter. In the forties and fifties, singer/songwriters were the exception to the rule. No one questioned the fact that Frank Sinatra did not write his own songs. Those who had talent to write songs did just that. Those who had a voice to sing could then fashion the song to fit their styles.
In the sixties, as people like Bob Dylan and Joni Mitchell because au courant, there came a notion that singers who did not sing their own songs were somehow less "authentic". So singers were now expected to write their own songs, and songwriters had to sing their own material. Even today, when young pop singers have material written for them, they are dismissed as "manufactured".
And while the "factory" system may have produced some inferior material, let's not forget that it gave us all the classic Motown material, as well as all the songs that came out of the Brill Building, from the likes of Carole King and Gerry Goffin, Ellie Greenwich and Jeff Barry, Barry Mann and Cynthia Weil, Neil Sedaka, Leiber & Stoller, Boyce and Hart, and of course Burt Bacharach and Hal David.
As for the comment that "the one-time popularity of Fabian is more to be questioned than the continuing popularity of Bob Dylan", I couldn't disagree more. I cannot fathom why anyone would willingly sit down and listen to Bob Dylan sing, in spite of his skills as a songwriter (which I won't debate here), whereas I can imagine someone listening to a pleasant singer like Fabian performing some less-than-stellar material.
Posted by Dave @ 03/25/2003 08:44 AM PST
