Posted by William E. Lurie @ 08/28/2003 08:18 AM PST

Bock and Harnick
Obviously, a subject dear to my heart as I spent the better part of last winter assembling a revue devoted to them. It played in May and Harnick attended and was enthusiastically appreciative. Once - I don't know why exactly - I sat down to write a list of all the people, living or dead, I truly admired. Sheldon's name was the first I thought of. There is no better living lyricist. Now, you Sondheim fans may carp, but we've got a great way of comparing the two. Suppose they both had to write a song for the exact same scene and situation in a musical based on the same source. Would that be a fair comparison? Good. It happened that they both musicalized Jules Ffeifer's Passionella, so you can compare Sondheim's effort, Truly Content, to Harnick's, Oh To Be a Movie Star. Ok. Have you listened to both songs now? I believe I've proved my point!

Then I started thinking and I can't think of a living composer whose work I like better than Bock. I even like him better than his homonym.

I've gone on too long, so I'll list a baker's dozen (not David Baker) of favorites, subject to change at any moment.

Oh, to be a movie star
How Much Richer Could One Man Be?
Where Do I Go From Here?
Beautiful, beautiful world
Go to sleep, whatever you are
Fish
What makes me love him
Boston Beguine
Garbage
The Very Next Man
Sabbath Prayer
Far From the Home I Love
On the Side of the Angels

Posted by Noel @ 08/28/2003 08:29 AM PST

Just so's we have a little representation of The Rothschilds, how about "Sons" and "He Tossed a Coin"?

Posted by JMK @ 08/28/2003 08:33 AM PST

Just to prove I can be a little briefer, let me say that I've long admired Maury Yeston. He showed energy and acumen the times he substituted for the ailing Lehman Engel at the BMI workshop, and we were all quite enamored of his song, New Words.
Nine is a near-perfect score. I'll only list the songs I don't admire: Be Italian, Be On Your Own - I guess his trouble must have been starting titles with "Be" - and the title song can sound a little screechy. Home from Phantom is an amazingly wonderful song about love for the theatre. There are a couple of good songs, here and there, in both Grand Hotel and Titanic. But what amazes me most is that, by collaborating with the worst composer ever to come down the pike, Frank Wildhorn, he managed to get the California kid to write a mature and pretty tune! That's pretty miraculous, don't you think? It's called And So Much More, and it's a rip-off of Berlin's How Deep Is the Ocean but hey, I got to hand it to the guy.

Posted by Noel @ 08/28/2003 08:41 AM PST

Emily:

The review of Miss Saigon in the Gazette today also mentioned how bad the sound was. I wonder if that depends on where you were sitting. I hope that it will be fixed by Saturday.

I'm afraid that seems to happen often there - the first day or two the sound is awful.

I guess that is what you get for playing in a barn.

How many seats would you say Salle Wilfred Pelletier has? 5000? 10,000?

One thing I find is that unless you're in the first 15 rows YOU CAN'T SEE ANYTHING! It's too big!

Posted by Jennifer @ 08/28/2003 08:51 AM PST

Hey for all you other Big Brother fans (the 2 others here :)

What did you think of last night's show? I was happy the all girl alliance will rule!

And I loved how they took Jun away without telling any of them. Throw them off guard. I'm not that happy though that they are doing the veto comp without her. Makes it 2 against 2.

Posted by Jennifer @ 08/28/2003 08:54 AM PST

Awright, Noel is looking for a fight today.... ;-)

1) Sheldon Harnick is an able lyricist, but it is senseless to compare him to Sondheim.

2) Frank Wildhorn is the worst composer ever? Really? I'm sure if you thought about that for a while, you would find a long list of composers far worse.

But I think we can all agree that Bock and Harnick formed a wonderful partnership, and their work in SHE LOVES ME and FIDDLER ON THE ROOF are terrific, through and through. I must confess that THE ROTHCHILDS has never been a favourite of mine, though.

But my favourite song by the pair is probably "When Did I Fall in Love" from FIORELLO!

Posted by Dave @ 08/28/2003 09:05 AM PST

Gee, it's not every day I find myself defending both Sondheim *and* Wildhorn! Strange, that...

Posted by Dave @ 08/28/2003 09:06 AM PST

What's wrong with playing in a barn?

LOL.

Ahhhhhhh...so hard to choose...and FAR FROM THE HOME I LOVE...is so lovely and touching.

GOOD MORNING GOOD DAY - from SHE LOVES ME...but if pressed to choose..and choose I must, I would pick two others from SLM:

DAYS GONE BY and PERSPECTIVE!

Posted by Jrand53 @ 08/28/2003 09:12 AM PST

Ten miles to Aunt Sally's Pecan Prawlines.

Posted by Ethel Mertz @ 08/28/2003 09:13 AM PST

Jrand:

It's not a barn. It's just so huge!

Posted by Jennifer @ 08/28/2003 09:18 AM PST

LOL Jennifer...you mean not like mine...click on my name, but watch out for popups!

Posted by Jrand53 @ 08/28/2003 09:29 AM PST

Four Miles to Aunt Sally's Pecan Prawlines.

Posted by Fred Mertz @ 08/28/2003 09:29 AM PST

Bock -n- Harnick:
All of the Adam & Eve act of The Apple Tree.
Far From the Home I Love

DR Noel:
I see that Wildhorn makes you very angry. But he doesn't deserve the title of "Worst Composer to Ever Come Down the Pike". That's a little extreme, don't you think? What you need is a nice lunch with a nice girl in a nice park, and perhaps when you return you will not be so grumpy.

DR Dave: I do not agree that it is senseless to compare Harnick to Sondheim. Why do you say that? Noel made a fair comparison: two songs sung by the same character about the exact same subject from the exact same source. And Harnick wins, IMHO. Are you familiar with these two songs, Truly Content and Oh, to Be a Movie Star? I've sung them both, and the second is much better.

On the other hand, it is a little like comparing apples and pomegranates (sp?). Sondheim is more complex and tricky than Harnick. Come to think of it, this is an interesting essay question. "Compare and contrast the lyrical style and technique of Sondheim and Harnick. Cite examples from their work."

Posted by Joy @ 08/28/2003 09:33 AM PST

Craig--let us know all about the Little Shop final dress! Kerry Butler is going to be so amazing...what a voice.

Dave-lol, I think though that it is definitely possible to be both a Sondheim and a Wildhorn fan. They're such opposites though. I admire Sondheim as the greatest living theatre composer bar none, but Wildhorn really is a fine melodist. I like him better than ALW, who can be too derivative. But it's all a matter of personal taste!

Favorite Bock and Harnick songs...

If I Were a Rich Man
Matchmaker
Far from the Home I Love
Ice Cream
She Loves Me
Tonight at Eight
The Very Next Man
And I love Too Close for Comfort too

Posted by Maya @ 08/28/2003 09:34 AM PST

Jennifer:
I was sorry to see Jack leave the Big Brother house! :( He seems like such a neat guy. I thought that Erica would be a bit more upset about his going..sort of surprised me. No tears or anything. Maybe she was just too relieved at not leaving herself!

Jun will make an interesting HOH, don't you think? And having her myseriously leave..I can't wait to see the reactions from the others. What confusion there will be!

Jee and Robert looked a bit scared at not winning HOH! Yikes!

And really, what does Justin see in Dana? I can't understand that one!

As for todays discussion...I don't know who those people are so I am really in the dark on this one, so I will just let you all talk amongst yourselves as I look in from outside.

Posted by MBarnum @ 08/28/2003 09:38 AM PST

Oh yes, Craig...what a treat to be there this evening! Have fun, and watch out for Audrey II 'cos she is comin' after YOU!!!

Posted by Jrand52 @ 08/28/2003 09:45 AM PST

One mile to Aunt Sally's Pecan Prawlines.

We have to stop, I feel like she's an old friend.

Posted by Ricky Ricardo @ 08/28/2003 09:46 AM PST

How appropriate that the Bock Harnick question is asked today. I moved here to New York City (almost exactly to the hour as I type this) 23 years ago today and the song from Fiddler, Far From the Home I Love, means so much to me in that respect. I remember hearing it (not for the first time) during my last few weeks in Minnesota and being struck by how beautiful it was muscially, and lyrically. I love New York, even to the point of considering myself a "New Yorker" whatever that means, but that song touches/touched me very deeply. It is my favorite Bock and Harnick. And, that Professor Kimmel is my essay on Home and Hearth.

That said, I agree with JMK, let's get some Rothschilds in there. Sons and In My Own Lifetime are my favorites from that show. I would love to have seen Hal Linden in the show. I never saw a production and I missed the Mufti (I think they did it, right WEL?) bare bones revival here in NYC so I'm only familiar w/the cast recording.

I do LOVE She Loves Me but I know it's also a favorite of many Dear Readers so I won't post all my favorites from it since they will all be mentioned most likely.

Posted by Ben @ 08/28/2003 09:46 AM PST

Joy, I said it was senseless to compare Harnick to Sondheim because as you rightly point out, it's a question of apples and oranges.

And to use the specific example provided is dubious. Sondheim took one approach, and Harnick another. Which is "better" is a matter of personal preference, as most matters concerning art are bound to be.

More to the point, Sondheim wrote his song in 1962, when he was only 32. Harnick wrote his in 1966, when he would have been 44, giving him the benefit of age and experience. (The fact that Sondheim wrote his version first means that Harnick had the benefit of learning from Sondheim...)

To offer a more relevant comparison, why not take some objective measures of lyrical craft (imagery, character, rhyme, alliteration, etc.), take the best examples of such from each lyricist, and then decide whose craft is superior? It's still a moot point, but it at least would offer a reasonable ground for comparison.

Posted by Dave @ 08/28/2003 09:48 AM PST

Ben --- I guess I'm the Mufti expert here. I wish they would announce the titles for next season. Thus far they have only announced the dates. Mufti did not do THE ROTHSCHILDS. In around 1989-90 there was a cut-down revival at Circle-In-The-Square which did not run too long.

Posted by William E. Lurie @ 08/28/2003 09:50 AM PST

I mean the off-Broadway Circle-In-The-Square in the Village, not the one in the basement of the Gershwin.

Posted by William E. Lurie @ 08/28/2003 09:51 AM PST

You have just passed Aunt Sally's Pecan Prawlines.

Turn around, Ricky, turn around, there's a sign on the door.

Lucy gets out, reads the sign, comes back.

Ricky: What did the sign say?

Lucy: Out of business.

Fred: I knew Aunt Sally was spending too much money on those signs.

Posted by Lucy Ricardo @ 08/28/2003 09:57 AM PST

The pity of Bock and Harnick is that their collboration came to an end so soon after it began. No one writes lyrics from the heart of the character better than Harnick, and no wrote since Fritz Loewe ever wrote music more specific to time and place than Bock.

Fiddler, She Loves Me, Apple Tree... all jewels in the truest sense.

Posted by Philip Crosby @ 08/28/2003 09:59 AM PST

MBarnum - look at the titles of the musicals. I know you have seen FIDDLER ON THE ROOF!!

OMG - I just almost made a very embarrassing typo...do you realize the changing of a consonant in the title of that musical would make it MOST unseemly??

Posted by Jrand53 @ 08/28/2003 10:03 AM PST

Honestly JRand, I have never seen Fiddler on the Roof (I am ashamed to say).

Posted by MBarnum @ 08/28/2003 10:24 AM PST

You will never be sorry if you rent it...and watch, I promise!

Posted by Jrand53 @ 08/28/2003 10:31 AM PST

Dear Reader MBarnum: In a Stella Dallas sort of mood today, are we?

Dear Reader Craig: If Henry Aaronson is still the music director on "LSOH," please tell him I say hello. He and I were high school classmates.

Regarding Messrs. Bock and Harnick: so many Dear Readers have already named so many wonderful songs. Allow me to add "Tradition" from Fiddler. I think this is one of the best opening numbers in the Broadway canon, dramatically, lyrically and musically. I've already gone on record with my opinon that "If I Were a Rich Man" is one of the greatest "I want" songs to be penned. Many of you know that I'm a huge fan of She Loves Me, and I didn't want this post to not include mention of that wonderful, wonderful score.

Posted by Jay @ 08/28/2003 10:43 AM PST

BOCK AND HARNICK FAVS:
1. I love the entire score of TENDERLOIN (even though they had a lot of problems with the show). To me, each and every song just sparkles.
2. From FIORELLO, I like "On the Side of the Angels," "Politics and Poker," "Little Tin Box," "I Love a Cop," "When Did I Fall in Love," and "The Very Next Man." That's just about every song!
3. From FIDDLER ON THE ROOF, "Tradition" is one of the best opening numbers.
A NOTE ABOUT JERRY BOCK: I love how he portrays the authentic sounds of the period. The opening strains of "Tradition" immediately capture a native place in my soul (and I'm not even Jewish!). The honky-tonk feel of "Little Old New York" draws me instantly into place and time.
THEIR BREAKUP: I think it was in the book, "The Making of Fiddler on the Roof," that I read about Bock and Harnick's falling out. It had to do with a director of The Rothchilds--one wanted him to stay and the other didn't. The real losers, of course, are the audiences. Just think what more they could have done for our pleasure! God watch over all our songwriting teams!

Posted by Donna @ 08/28/2003 10:43 AM PST

BK and Dear Readers!

Please excuse my absence since Tuesday afternoon! It's been an interesting past 48 hours... WITHOUT POWER!!! I'm just sitting here trying to think of things that I did, but nothing is coming to me. I did some reading by candle light. Watched some soap operas on the 6" black and white battery operated TV. Listened to some talk radio.

I did, however, have the lovely opportunity to go to a concert at Merriwether Post Pavillion-- Ben Folds and Tori Amos. I did not know much about Ms. Amos and still am not extremely fond of her music, but she puts on a great show. Mr. Ben Folds, however, is one of my heroes and the reason I went to the concert. His segment of the show consisted of him and a piano. This guy is a stellar pianist; I've never seen someone rock out on a piano as well as Mr. Folds. If you don't know this guy's music, check it out, you might actually enjoy it.

Another great thing during the blackout period-- no school for two days! I've only been back for two days, then two days off. And then school tomorrow, and then a three day weekend! Huzzah!

So obviously power has returned and I'm back to HHW. Hope all is well, I've got plenty of reading to do!

Posted by Paulie @ 08/28/2003 11:22 AM PST

I do love Bock and Harnick. I'll
mention just a few She Loves Me
songs-"Ice Cream" "Grand Knowing
You" "I Resolve" "Dear Friend"
"Tonight at Eight" I want very much
to play Kodaly some day.
I love muuch of Fiddler, particularly
"Far From the Home I Love" and "Do
You Love Me?" but the whole score
is just classic. It's like a part of our
collective theatrical DNA.
(Wouldn't it be funny if Tevye and
Golde sang "Do You Love Me?" and
afterwards a jubilant Tevye sang
"She Loves Me"?)
The Rothschilds has some good
stuff in it-I've actually seen a
production and it works pretty well
on stage.
I am ashamed to admit that I only
barely know Fiorello (though "Little
Tin Box" is wonderful), and don't
know Tenderloin or The Apple Tree
at all.

Posted by Hapgood @ 08/28/2003 11:22 AM PST

MBarnum wrote about my obcession Big Brother 4:

Jennifer:
I was sorry to see Jack leave the Big Brother house! :( He seems like such a neat guy. I thought that Erica would be a bit more upset about his going..sort of surprised me. No tears or anything. Maybe she was just too relieved at not leaving herself!

I think Jack was great. But i really prefer Erika. I think she was upset. But she was prepared. And obviously she didn't want to leave.

Jun will make an interesting HOH, don't you think? And having her myseriously leave..I can't wait to see the reactions from the others. What confusion there will be!

I loved how they took her to the DR and then didnt tell the houseguests. Although i'm mad that they are using her whereabouts as part of the veto game.

And really, what does Justin see in Dana? I can't understand that one!

OMG, I know what you mean!

Posted by Jennifer @ 08/28/2003 11:35 AM PST

Jennifer,
Sometimes I like Erika and sometimes she leaves me cold. Actually this really isn't the most interesting of the Big Brother groups. I still pine away for the Big Brother 1 people, believe it or not!

How is Jun's disappearence going to connect with the veto game? I missed that part I think. It will be interesting I hope.

Evidently TEMPTATION ISLAND starts tonight...THE AMAZING RACE just ended last week so I was hoping to have my Thursday's back for awhile before SURVIVOR starts...but it is hard to pass up TEMPTATION ISLAND!

Posted by MBarnum @ 08/28/2003 11:54 AM PST

Well I just got a call from the ever charming and talented Ms. Kerry Butler who informed me that tonight's final dress has been cancelled, but 1st preview will go as scheduled tomorrow. I probably won't see the show now until opening because the only reason I would have gone was to experience a final dress. I try and not see shows until they are FROZEN...

Posted by Craig @ 08/28/2003 12:06 PM PST

Oh, Craig! That is the definition of the bitter with the sweet...a phone call from Miss Kerry Butler...saying don't come tonight!

Thanks, dammit!

Posted by Jrand53 @ 08/28/2003 12:10 PM PST

DR Hapgood: You are in for a treat with Tenderloin. It boasts my favorite broadway overture. My Gentle Young Johnny is heartbreaking. And Artificial Flowers is a hoot.

And from The Apple Tree: What Makes Me Love Him, as Barbara Harris sings it, is one of the simplest, sweetest love songs.

Hal Linden's In My Own Lifetime is simpler and more effective than Pearl Bailey's version - but the song works outside of The Rothschilds.

Fiorello was the first H&B show I heard, so I have a special attachment to it. I'm sure George Abbott was right to ax Where Do I Go From Here, but it is a terrific song (and was why I bought my first BK CD). Little Tin Box has been copied but never duplicated.

She Loves Me: The score is perfection, but if pressed I'd pick Ice Cream, which is funny, endearing, entirely in character, and perfectly integrated into the story. (All of which Harnick and Bock do so well.)

Has anyone heard Body Beautiful? Canterville Ghost?

Posted by Dan-in-Toronto @ 08/28/2003 12:28 PM PST

Yess, Jr - it is always sweet (not bitter) to hear from the delightful and talented Ms. Kerry Butler. I shall give her your regards the very next time we chat

Posted by Craig @ 08/28/2003 12:29 PM PST

When it comes to Bock & Harnick, I can't pick a favorite song: they're almost all near perfect.

I can, however, pick the ONE song of theirs that I absolutely DETEST, and that's "I Love a Cop," from FIORELLO. Stupid character, inane lyric, dumb melody. Sorry, boys: I hate it.

The musical theatre has most definitely suffered for the absence of post-ROTHSCHILDS Bock & Harnick material.

Posted by Drumm @ 08/28/2003 12:39 PM PST

CUTS IN RODGERS AND HAMMERSTEIN FILMS. Fro what I have been told, the missing footage does not exist for the King and I and Carousel numbers.
A lot of the footage for South Pacific exists. Not as much is missing as you may think. The roadshow running time is 171 minutes. The current running time is 161 because both running times include the Overture Intermission and Exit Music.
Missing is a short comic reprise of Bali Hai sung by Ray Walston, a shor reprise of Bali Hai sung by John Kerr and the chorus dubbed by Bill Lee. When the film went off roadshow, the shots of John Kerr were removed and replaced with long shots of the boat and the solos for John Kerr were replaced with choral tracks. However, the original version can be heard on the Image Entertainment special edition of Rodgers and Hammerstein - the sound of movies. Image added all the trailers for the r and h films inclouding the original release trailer for South Pacifc and you can hear the John Kerr reprise of Bali Hai in the trailer.
Sadly, the uncut version of Gonna wash That Man never even made it to the first preview print. That would be tough to find. The song Loneliness of evening was recorded and shot but never made it to the first cut.
When will we get a dvd of Flower drum Song?

Posted by Joe Caporiccio @ 08/28/2003 12:40 PM PST

My two favorite Bock and Harnick songs come from The Rothschilds. One made it in the final show and the other didn't. They both have a lot to say are still meaningful in todays world.

In My Own Lifetime
Just a Map

And BK had the good taste to record Just a Map on Lost in Boston II sung gorgeously by Meg Bussert.

Posted by Michael @ 08/28/2003 12:48 PM PST

DR Panni

I looked up your credits and remember seeing some of your other wonderful work. Charlie Grant's War was especially memorable.

And you wrote for The King of Kennsington wow!

Posted by Michael @ 08/28/2003 12:56 PM PST

Thanks, Craig!

Great info about SOUTH PACIFIC, Joe! Thanks. The stage version does include those BALI HAI reprises for Billis and Joe, but I never knew they were filmed. I add my vote for the FLOWER DRUM SONG reprise, my pan and scan video is getting worn out!

Paulie - welcome back to the 21st century!

BK mentioned this yesterday...when OKLAHOMA! was filmed, it was filmed twice, in TODD AO and then again in CinemaScope! And it is the 'Scope version that was first released on video and had been shown on TV. The newer video releases and the DVD release are the TODD AO takes, and their is a subtle and terrific difference. It is like watching a Twilight Zone version of the movie...a bit more energy, and the performers are fresher! If you haven't seen the difference, check it out!!!

Posted by Jrand53 @ 08/28/2003 12:58 PM PST

Of course "their" = "there" in the above post.

Posted by Jrand53 @ 08/28/2003 12:59 PM PST

Mr BK must be working very hard earning his $$ today!

Posted by Jrand53 @ 08/28/2003 01:16 PM PST

Ran across my notes from an early meeting with my co-divisor about what would go in the Bock & Harnick revue. That day, it struck us that there were ten songs which ANY B & H revue would have to include: Vanilla Ice Cream, Do You Love Me, She Loves Me, Sunrise Sunset, Matchmaker, Far From the Home I Love, If I Were a Rich Man, Tonight At 8, Mr. Wonderful, Too Close For Comfort (these last 2 Bock wrote with Larry Holofcener and George David Weiss). Then, I made a list of songs _I_ dearly wanted in the show: Boston Beguine, Garbage, When the Sea Is All Around Us, Oh To Be a Movie Star, What Makes Me Love Him?, Fish, Forbidden Fruit, A Trip to the Library, The Very Next Man, Little Tin Box, Politics and Poker.

As others have pointed out, it's the feeling for time and place that makes Bock such a superior composer of shows. What would you say about someone who wrote shows set in 19th Century America, 19th Century Britain and 18th Century France and all 3 sound exactly the same, like late 20th Century soft rock? If the "pike" you live on is Broadway... 'Nuff said.

Smashing New York Times, a fine song, is from A Broadway Musical, I believe.

Great lunch. Great park. Great girl. I'm decidedly UN-grumpy

Posted by Noel @ 08/28/2003 01:27 PM PST

No matter how many times I hear it,
"Tradition" still gives me chills.
Another Bock and Harnick song that
I like is from "Tenderloin" - it's a
"don't blink you'll miss it " song, and
it's "It's Grand how the Money
Changes Hands". Plans are to MD
Fiddler again next spring -- my 4th
time through the show, a show I can
never tire of.

Posted by Matthew @ 08/28/2003 01:28 PM PST

DR Michael - I cannot tell you what a rotten morning I've been having! Then I logged on to HHW and saw your posting. You've (almost) cheered me up. Thanks for remembering Charlie Grant's War. It's something I'm very proud of. It's funny (in a good way) that you're impressed by my writing K. of K. I suppose that was an iconic Canadian show - and I certainly learned an enormous amount in the five years I wrote for it. Did you ever watch "Seeing Things"...? I did quite a few of those and was also story consultant. It was a wonderful series, if I do say so myself. And I just did. Where in Canada are you?

Posted by Panni @ 08/28/2003 01:31 PM PST

How come no one has mentioned "Anatevka"...? A great song. And to get back to yesterday's discussion, a movie a moment that always makes me cry.

...A stick of wood, a piece of cloth
What do we leave?
Nothing much
Only Anatevka

Perfect lyrics. As someone who left her home in a similar manner, that song gets me where I live every time.

Posted by Panni @ 08/28/2003 01:43 PM PST

Every time I think I'm OUT they
pull me back in. That's what's
been happening all day today.
I'll finally have a minute to
escape to my office, I'll catch
up with your excellent posts,
and then - excuse me for a
moment..

You see, just as I was writing
this post, they had need of me
again. It should ease up later
in the afternoon, though.

You know, as I was writing my
Bock and Harnick choices and
listing Too Close for Comfort,
something was nagging at me
that it wasn't Harnick, so mea
culpa. Yes, I'm a culpa and
that's just the way it is.

Noel, I'm afraid you made dear
reader Dave hopping mad, oh,
yes, he was hopping mad.
Also, Dave admitted yesterday
(for those who were following
along) that he indeed hadn't
heard any of Randy Newman's
early work. Therefore, I posit
that it is not possible to make
overview statements about his
songwriting without ever
having heard the work which
made him popular with the
populace. If you only know his
movie work, then you don't
know him. Dave also asked
for someone to print an
example of a good Randy
Newman lyric - I don't know
what that means, really, but
what I'd recommend is getting
his "greatest hits" compilation
and listening to the music
AND the lyrics together.
Others from that era that I love
- Rupert Holmes, Carol King,
Tim Moore, Gilbert O'Sullivan,
Peter Skellern, etc. Your turn.

Posted by bk @ 08/28/2003 01:49 PM PST

What are we, in Lullsville all of
a sudden? Are we taking a
siesta all of a sudden? Are we
doing homework all of a
sudden? Let's get some
postin' goin' on, shall we?

Posted by bk @ 08/28/2003 02:11 PM PST

I love Carole King too, as well as Gilbert O'Sullivan and Rupert Holmes, but what did the others you mentioned write, BK? I also love DonMcLean, James Taylor, Michael Martin Murphey, Loggins & Messina, etc etc. That was when songwriters wrote songs. Don't ask me what they do nowadays.

Posted by Joy @ 08/28/2003 02:20 PM PST

Favorite B&H show: SHE LOVES ME. Got to see the original NYC production, and I've been in love with the show ever since. Perfection on the stage. My favorite song in it is the title song. Quite an interesting rhythm throughout the song making it extremely unique.

FIDDLER is a wonderful show, but as I've said before, I can't be objective about it any longer because I've just seen it too many times. My favorite song from it is "Miracle of Miracles." Joyous. Makes me feel better just hearing it.

I have an LP of THE BODY BEAUTIFUL (recorded through the theater's sound system, I believe), and I've never listened to it! I know. Irresponsible! One of these days I'll get around to it.

Posted by Matt H. @ 08/28/2003 02:23 PM PST

I saw the City Center Encores production of "Tenderloin" and was kind of bored, I have to admit. I did, however, enjoy "How the Money Changes Hands". That was fun. The rest of it...meh.

Posted by Joy @ 08/28/2003 02:23 PM PST

My absolute favorite B & H song is also from She Loves Me, and I am sure it has been mentioned before -- Dear Friend.

Posted by TCB @ 08/28/2003 02:28 PM PST

"Dear Friend" is significant to me as well!.
The first B & H song I heard was the Bobby Darin version of "Artificial Flowers" which is still a favourite of mine.

Must also mention "Days Gone By","My Own Lifetime" and "When Did I fall In Love". I think there is a song from "Rex" that I really liked too - it might be "Away From You".

Posted by Tom from Oz @ 08/28/2003 02:40 PM PST

"The Body Beautiful". If Only!
I just checked my record and read the the song titles - not one of them I remember! I think I purchased about the same time as "Drat The Cat" and "Smiling the Boy Fell Dead". I can't remember any of the songs from "Smiling" either. Has anyone mentioned "STBFD" as a Harnick musical too?

Posted by Tom from Oz @ 08/28/2003 02:45 PM PST

Don't worry, Noel, if I were mad at you, I'd let you know. ;-)

And as Bruce points out, I did say that I had never listened to the early Randy Newman albums; however, that doesn't mean that I haven't heard his songs. I have heard a fair number of his songs, but I prefer to hear them performed by other people.

BK also says that he doesn't know what I meant when I asked someone to post one of Mr. Newman's better lyrics. I imagine he is pulling our leg, but I'll try to re-phrase the question: could one of the Randy Newman fans on this board post one of their favourite Randy Newman lyrics to this site?

BK's suggestion that I buy a greatest hits compilation by Mr. Newman indicates that he hadn't read the earlier part of my post, in which I said I couldn't bear to listen to the man's voice for more than a minute. I can hardly imagine myself spending actual money to hear it for an hour.

On to other topics...

The argument about Frank Wildhorn's music being somewhat generic is a fair one. But Noel, your argument about a composer whose work sounds the same regardless of time and place can be used to damn just about every Broadway composer of the first half of the last century. It is likely that most people could not tell you what shows Rodgers & Hart wrote their most famous songs for, let alone what era those songs took place. Songs from A CONNECTICUT YANKEE, BOYS FROM SYRACUSE and BABES IN ARMS could be virtually interchangeable, and consider the disparate settings of those shows. It's also telling that a song cut from OKLAHOMA! could be easily interpolated into CAROUSEL, despite their geographic and chronological differences.

Now, I'm a great fan of Richard Rodgers (and I have a tremendous amount of respect for Oscar Hammerstein), but if we are going to make sweeping judgments using your criteria, then let's be fair.

Posted by Dave @ 08/28/2003 02:49 PM PST

Paulie: I absolutely ADORE Ben Folds, and especially his work with Ben Folds Five. I am so jealous of you for being able to see him in concert. He never comes to Canada so I've never gotten to experience what I've heard are great concerts.

How great would a Ben Folds musical be? He already has the story-song technique down. I always thought Army would be a great "I Want" song on stage. Plus, of course, Stephen's Last Night on the Town, Brick, Philosophy and... wow... that list would go on forever :)

I remember a Sherie Rene Scott interview on playbill.com (I think) where she was asked which three non-musical theatre composers she'd like to see try the genre out. She said "Ben Folds, Ben Folds, Ben Folds".

I have to agree :)

Posted by Emily @ 08/28/2003 02:49 PM PST

btw guys...

I had "The Heat is on in Saigon" stuck in my head ALL day today. So I guess the $70 was worth it after all.

:)

Posted by Emily @ 08/28/2003 02:52 PM PST

Simply can't go wrong with
Harnick and Bock. As opined
many times already today, the
entire score to She Loves Me
is simply wonderful, hard to
find any fault with it at all. I'm a
Fiddler fan through and
through, and also enjoy much
of The Apple Tree. Must
confess, I am woefully
unfamiliar with Fiorello,
Tenderloin, and The
Rothschilds.

To pick out a few (10) songs
that particularly strike my
fancy...
Chavaleh
A Trip to the Library
I Don't Know His Name
Do You Love Me?
It's A Fish
Where's My Shoe?
Try Me
No More Candy
L'Chaim
Tevye's Dream

Posted by Jed @ 08/28/2003 02:53 PM PST

DR Panni:

I'm not much of a TV watcher, but the off-the-wall Seeing Things was a huge favorite in my house. We always looked forward to it. You absolutely should be proud. (BTW, I sort of worked with Lynne Gordon later on.)

I'm embarrassed to say I never watched King of Kensington, but when Al Waxman died the outpouring of affection for him - and for the role he created - was overwhelming.

When Miss Rose White was first mentioned on HHW, I commented on how moving I found it. I remember it very well after all these years.

Posted by Dan-in-Toronto @ 08/28/2003 02:56 PM PST

Tim Moore wrote a beautiful
song called Second Avenue
(more known in its cover
version by Art Garfunkel) and
Peter Skellern had a hit called
Your a Lady, which is very
interesting musically. Favorite
Gilbert O'Sullivan - Claire.

Dave - if you can't stand his
voice, then you will simply not
hear some of his best songs,
since they remain unrecorded
by others. Oh, well.

The lyric to I Think it's Going to
Rain Today is very striking. Do
a google search and you'll find
it just fine. The lyric to Marie is
wonderful, in my opinion.
That, of course, is available on
your copy of the Guy Haines
album. Wait, you don't have
the Guy Haines album? Oh,
dear.

Posted by bk @ 08/28/2003 02:56 PM PST

DR. Panni

Up until about 7 years ago I lived in Montreal. (I worked in the "biz" on and off up until the time I left.) I am now in Florida.

I do remember Seeing Things with Louis Del Grande. (Always wondered why no US network ever picked up that concept)

And I do remember Louis having his head blown up in the film Scanners.

Posted by Michael @ 08/28/2003 03:01 PM PST

DR Panni:

I'm not much of a TV watcher, but the off-the-wall Seeing Things was a huge favorite in my house. We always looked forward to it. You absolutely should be proud. (BTW, I sort of worked with Lynne Gordon later on.)

I'm embarrassed to say I never watched King of Kensington, but when Al Waxman died the outpouring of affection for him - and for the role he created - was overwhelming.

When Miss Rose White was first mentioned on HHW, I commented on how moving I found it. I remember it very well after all these years.

Posted by Dan-in-Toronto @ 08/28/2003 03:02 PM PST

Dear Dan In Toronto:

The same post word for word and six minutes apart! Now that is a www mystery. Usually double post (like I have done in the past)appear on after another!

Posted by MDS @ 08/28/2003 03:06 PM PST

DR Dan-in-Toronto - Thanks for the nice words about SEEING THINGS and ROSE WHITE. I'm thinking Ralph Edwards is going to jump out of my closet any minute.
DR Michael- SEEING THINGS did run in the States (and all over the world). It was on PBS at some ungodly hour in the middle of the night and had a cult following. I remember we once got a fan letter from Stiller and Meara who'd accidentally found it and became fans.

Posted by Panni @ 08/28/2003 03:22 PM PST

DR Jose: You don't have to rely solely upon the toilet bowl flush to see the effects of being down under. Watch water drain from the bathroom sink...or look down when you are in the shower...cover the drain with your foot for a minute or so...and then take your foot off.

Posted by Ron Pulliam @ 08/28/2003 03:29 PM PST

I am so pleased DR Ron that you have found other amusements for Jose. At least he may now visit our shower, kitchen and whatever and not just gaze into the toilet bowl for hours.
We shall try and get some photographs of this OZ meeting. Should we send them to Craig or Mark?

Posted by Tom from Oz @ 08/28/2003 03:36 PM PST

DR Dan-in-Toronto - You got me thinking about KING OF KENSINGTON and Al Waxman. I was very young when I started on that show. Al sometimes called me (fondly) the "hippie chick" because I wore long flowing skirts and embroidered cotton blouses from India and had long straight hair. Not exactly the typical image for a sitcom writer. Al was truly loved by the public. He was a fine, fine actor - and the role of the folksy, benevolent "King," a small-shop-owner in Kensington Market, with an interfering Jewish mother and a headstrong WASP wife, was a superb acting job. Except people thought that's who he REALLY was. To illustrate: Once I ran into Al and his wife at an opening of a play. We all stayed for drinks afterwards and they offered me a ride home. We went to the outdoor parking lot across the street from the theater -- which we discovered had closed because of the late hour. The heavy automatic "arm" that locked the entrance was down permanently and there would be no way to get out until morning. There was a line of about five cars behind us, also trying to get out - to no avail. Al finally got out of his car, went over to the arm, said a few choice words -- and ripped it out! As I was standing beside the car watching this superhuman feat, an older woman from the car behind me came over, tapped me on the shoulder and said in a combination of total startstruck admiration and utter disbelief at what she'd just witnessed, "Excuse me... Was that... the King of Kensington?"

Posted by Panni @ 08/28/2003 03:48 PM PST

Micheal: there's some "biz" to work for in Montreal?!?

Impossible!

It sure keeps itself quiet if an industry beyond the Centaur exists.

:)

Posted by Emily @ 08/28/2003 03:55 PM PST

Interesting fact:

Sheldon Harnick was married to Elaine May.

Posted by Dan-in-Toronto @ 08/28/2003 03:56 PM PST

Panni and Dan in T.O.:

how funny that you both are discussing King of Kensington. Just today I was going through my parents books and came across a cook book written by Sara Waxman (Al's wife) called "The King's Wife's Cookbook".

I always loved flipping through that one when I was little because it was filled, not only with great recipes, but also with a bunch of cute anecdotes relating to their marriage, family, careers and, of course, FOOD.

:)

Posted by Emily @ 08/28/2003 03:59 PM PST

DR Emily--

I hadn't even thought of a Ben Folds musical! How great that would be! He played "Army" and "Philosophy," two of my favorite of his older stuff.

Are you familiar with the new stuff? "Rockin' the Suburbs" is a great album. He announced lastnight that his new 5 song EP was just finished. He played a HILARIOUS song from that-- I cannot disclose the title or lyrics of it on this family-oriented board, however. (:

Posted by Paulie @ 08/28/2003 04:08 PM PST

And now Sheldon Harnick is married to Barbara (COMPANY) Barrie.

Posted by William E. Lurie @ 08/28/2003 04:18 PM PST

I didn't know that Sheldon Harnick was married to Elaine May!
Favorite Nichols & May line:
(paraphrasing)
Elaine as a Jewish mother guilt-tripping son who's finally phoned: "I haven't eaten for three days. I didn't want my mouth to be full when you called."

Posted by Panni @ 08/28/2003 04:24 PM PST

Interesting fact:

Sheldon Harnick was married to Elaine May.

Posted by Dan-in-Toronto @ 08/28/2003 04:29 PM PST

Here is an interesting fact that
very few know: Sheldon
Harnick was married to Elaine
May.

I'm thinkin' we might just get to
83 posts. Of course, we'd be
much further along if students
Maya and Swishy Sarah were
not so errant and truant.

Posted by bk @ 08/28/2003 04:34 PM PST

Last night on Fantasy Island I bore witness to:

*Michelle Pfeiffer falling madly in love with (and kissing...ON THE LIPS) Ralph Malph.

*Heather O'Rourke (Carol Ann from Poltergeist) riding a tricycle, before she grows up to be...

*Nellie Olsen as a spandex-wearing hooker, whose mother is...

*Jan Brady

Now is that or is that not one of the most incredible hours in the history of television? I leave it to you.

Posted by Lulu @ 08/28/2003 04:36 PM PST

WEL:
Sheldon is married to Margery (Tenderloin) Gray. Sheldon's brother, Jay, is married to Barbara Barrie.

Posted by Yenta the Matchmaker @ 08/28/2003 04:37 PM PST

MBarnum wrote:
Jennifer,
Sometimes I like Erika and sometimes she leaves me cold.

I really like her and hope she wins. She is smart to go up with Ally and Jun who most people hate!

How is Jun's disappearence going to connect with the veto game? I missed that part I think. It will be interesting I hope.

You didn't miss it. I am just addicted to the canoe Big Brother updates. To me they make watching the show 100 times more enjoyable.

I don't want to spoil it for you in case you don't want to know. But check out this guy's updates. They are so good!

Go to the chat page here (click on today's transcript).
canoe.ca/JamBigBrother4/home.html

Posted by Jennifer @ 08/28/2003 04:40 PM PST

I have been errant and truant, agreed, but I AM here, so no worries.

I love all of the songs from FOTR, especially "Far From the Home I Love" and "Anatevka", which is just beautiful.

I really haven't got much to say...just finishing up some easy French homework (Quel jour es-TU alle(e) au cinema?), and then I need to read 30 pages of Beowulf, the most boring book in the history of man. I know it's a classic, but I've already read it a million times, I don't see why it's forced on us EVERY year.

Only 3 more days until Millie! I can't wait to meet Juliana.

Did you all have good days?

Posted by Sarah @ 08/28/2003 04:42 PM PST

Here is an interesting tidbit
you might not be aware of:
Sheldon Harnick was married
to Elaine May.

Mr. Harnick is not married to
Barbara Barrie nor is he
married to Barry Manilow. Mr.
Harnick's brother Jay is
married to Barbara Barrie. I
don't know who Barry Manilow
is married, too, but if he was
smart he'd meet someone
with the last name of Barrie,
and then he could take that
name and be Barry Barrie.
Then he could get divorced
and marry Sarah Uriarte Berry
and be Barry Barrie Berry, and
then he could create a new
drink.

Posted by bk @ 08/28/2003 04:45 PM PST

Sarah, just sick Grendl on your English teacher and your problems will be over.

OR offer to write a 5000 word paper delving into the use of the term "whale road." They'll be happy to stick you in Independent Study, where you can't do anybody any harm.

Posted by Lulu @ 08/28/2003 04:46 PM PST

The word "sick" should, in fact, be "sic."

That is all.

Posted by Lulu @ 08/28/2003 04:47 PM PST

Has anyone noticed that
there's an extra "o" in "too" up
there in my last post.

Do we think that Beowulf
would make a fine Jerry
Herman musical?

Beowulf
Was a gay o' wulf
Who ate mayo wulf
All day long
Beowulf
Used to say "Oh, Wulf"
Then sang "Day-O" wulf
For a song.

Posted by bruce@haineshisway.com @ 08/28/2003 04:52 PM PST

There's something very skewed about comparing Sondheim's "Truly Content" with Harnick's "Oh, to be a Movie Star." On the one hand, we have Sondheim writing for a show (The World of Jules Feiffer) that closed in tryouts, during the very early stages of his career. In comparison we are given Harnick's work, after he had already written Fiorello, She Loves Me, Tenderloin, and Fiddler On the Roof. Comparing the work of a lyricist (during what still counts as his apprenticeship) with the work of another lyricist (with several hit shows to his credit) smacks of an overeagerness to discredit the younger writer.

Posted by S. Woody White @ 08/28/2003 04:54 PM PST

What sparkling discourse we
are having on this fine
Thursday. So many opinions
presented in fine fashion (pink
taffeta sample size 10 and a
cloche hat). I, for one, had no
idea that Sheldon Harnick, for
example, was married to
Elaine May.

Posted by bk @ 08/28/2003 05:26 PM PST

Dear Yenta and others---
Forgive me in confusing the Harnick brothers. I never met Sheldon but worked with Jay years ago. This was when FIORELLO was running and he got a little tired of people asking him if he was related to Sheldon.

By the way, Sheldon was not married to Mike Nichols.

Posted by William E. Lurie @ 08/28/2003 05:42 PM PST

I'm thinkin' we might just get to
100 posts today. I'm thinkin'
Swishy Sarah needs to put
down that dreary old Beowulf,
which she's already read and
therefore must remember, and
grace us with her energetic
and personality-filled posts.

And where in tarnation IS Maya
del Rey?

Posted by bk @ 08/28/2003 05:53 PM PST

So did Sheldon Bloom marry anyone at all. Capped teeth and caesar salad - must be more to life!

Posted by Tom from Oz @ 08/28/2003 06:05 PM PST

Bock and Harnick shows and songs:

Fiorello ("Little Tin Box" is my favorite song)
Fiddler On the Roof ("Tradition" and the rest)
She Loves Me ("Tonight At Eight," "A Trip To the Library" and the rest)

I love "What Makes Me Love Him," but it's the only song that I know from The Apple Tree.

I also have recordings of, but have never listened to (shame on me) To Broadway With Love and The Rothschilds. I don't know much about anything else that they've written.

And since I don't really know either, I have always confused The Apple Tree with The Nervous Set. Since I recently got TNS, hopefully I'll get to know that CD so that I can soon know which I'm talking (or hearing) about, if only by process of elimination. "I don't know that song, so it must be from The Apple Tree."

Posted by George @ 08/28/2003 06:08 PM PST

I LOVED Beowulf when I was in high school. Sarah, do you have to read the new translation or what? I picked up the so-called "new translation" in a bookstore once and was appalled. It was like reading the Cliff Notes. "Once upon a time, there was this guy...". Yuk.

I have to clarify my statement earlier. I wrote:
That was when songwriters wrote songs. Don't ask me what they do nowadays.
I meant, of course, pop songwriters, not the type of songwriters I mentioned in my amourous posts of yesterday.

DR Dave: As you wish.
Short people got no reason
Short people got no reason
Short people got no reason
To live

They got little hands
And little eyes
And they walk around
Tellin' great big lies
They got little noses
And tiny little teeth
They wear platform shoes
On their nasty little feet

Well, I don't want no short people
Don't want no short people
Don't want no short people
Round here

Short people are just the same
As you and I
(A fool such as I)
All men are brothers
Until the day they die
(It's a wonderful world)

Short people got nobody
Short people got nobody
Short people got nobody
To love

They got little baby legs
And they stand so low
You got to pick 'em up
Just to say hello
They got little cars
That got beep, beep, beep
They got little voices
Goin' peep, peep, peep
They got grubby little fingers
And dirty little minds
They're gonna get you every time
Well, I don't want no short people
Don't want no short people
Don't want no short people
'Round here

Heh.

Posted by Joy @ 08/28/2003 06:33 PM PST

You know, it's just not the same without the music. It's true, Dave, you should really get yourself a recording and listen to it. They let you borrow them at the library, you know. That is assuming you have a good library.

Posted by Joy @ 08/28/2003 06:35 PM PST

Just because I remember it doesn't mean I don't have to read it. No, this time, I have to do journal logs and worksheets and literary terms on it. LOADS of fun.

Only 13 more pages to go. It helps to act it out as I go along, I can "portray emotion" better. Plus, it gives me more stuff to BS about in my stupid journal.

Personality-filled posts, eh? Today we had a thespian meeting and we're doing Dracula for our fall production, which should be AWESOME, but I'm not sure if I'm going to try out. My schedule is veeery hectic lately, and I'm not sure I could deal with that on top of SCA, Spartan Singers, HC planning, babysitting, working, and homework. But I'll definetly do tech if I'm not in the cast.

Paulie told me I should electrocute myself today. Only in the nicest possible way, of course...and my friends and I staged a fake screaming fight in the hallway today in front of the VP, and he came running over just as I screamed "Well you shouldn't have been doing that with a SHEEP you moron!" Luckliy, he's got a great sense of humor, and laughs were shared by all.

Now back to Beowulf, the Musical.

Posted by Sarah @ 08/28/2003 06:36 PM PST

So, y'all think we'll reach 100 posts today?

Posted by Joy @ 08/28/2003 06:36 PM PST

D'oh!

Posted by Homer Simpson @ 08/28/2003 06:37 PM PST

Highly doubtful.

Posted by Lulu @ 08/28/2003 06:50 PM PST

Did you know that Elaine Stritch worked for Sheldon Bloom at least when it was Tell Me On a Sunday and it was Marti Webb and then again his name wasn't Sheldon Bloom then either

Posted by Michael @ 08/28/2003 07:11 PM PST

Here I am! Sorry for having been errant and truant for most of the day. Please don't bitch-slap me, BK! As of now, I am Maya del Homework.

I just got back from the drama club meeting. It seems highly likely that we will be doing Where's Charley? for the spring musical. Yay! As for the fall play, we had to go online and look stuff up for suggestions. The director seems keen on doing a drama but we need a large cast of women. Some of the plays we came up with...Blood Wedding, the Madwoman of Chaillot (even though I'd rather do Dear World), The Rose Tattoo and some of the students really want to do Macbeth! Can you DRs think of any good suggestions? Keep in mind our director doesn't much care for "fluff," hehe.

Sarah, you must try out for Dracula! Maybe they could do some unconventional role-reversal casting and have you play the title role! ;) Then you'd be Swishy the Vampire (but not Swishy the Lesbian Vampire)!

Posted by Maya @ 08/28/2003 07:13 PM PST

I am trying to decide where I should go for the weekend.

New Orleans, Pittsburgh, Charlotte, NYC, Orlando or stay at home.

What are your votes?

Posted by Michael @ 08/28/2003 07:13 PM PST

I am trying to decide where I should go for the weekend.

New Orleans, Pittsburgh, Charlotte, NYC, Orlando or stay at home.

What are your votes?

Posted by Michael @ 08/28/2003 07:13 PM PST

Dear DR Emily:

Depending on the year the "biz" I worked in the production end in TV, was a bit player/extra in a bunch of terrible films. I acted,directed, produced, and wrote for the stage. Sometimes a combination of the four sometimes not. There were times I got bored with it and took time off.
Montreal never was the hub it could have been for film making. Although I did met and get to work with some wonderful actors and directors.

Posted by Michael @ 08/28/2003 07:17 PM PST

Good evening dear readers, and good evening esteemed BK (who is married to neither Sheldon Harnick nor Elaine May).

My two favorite things from B.& H. -- "Far From The Home I Love" , and (once again, I know I'm a minority.....waht else is new..nu?) I like just about all of Tenderloin. DR Kerry and I have listened to it a lot over the years.

Posted by MusicGuy @ 08/28/2003 07:34 PM PST

Also, we had a wonderful feast last night with DR Laura...Oh, the groaning board was groaning alright, and we have a great evening.......even took a walk around our neighborhood after dinner.....and before Godiva ice cream bars.

The neighborhood was completely free of lesbian vampires, and we didn't see Elaine May or Sheldon Harnick.

Posted by MusicGuy @ 08/28/2003 07:37 PM PST

I like The Crucible - good roles for both men and women and quite a large cast.

Actually I was married to both Sheldon Harnick and Elaine May - at the same time.

Posted by bk @ 08/28/2003 07:38 PM PST

I don't believe Barry Manilow is married now nor has he ever been to my knowledge.

Oh, dear, Michael, if you pick Charlotte for your visiting place, I need to start doing some heavy cleaning!

Posted by Matt H. @ 08/28/2003 07:39 PM PST

OhMyGod Dear BK...the mental image -- it's a good thing that neither of the others in that trio was a lobster fisherman: it would have been a "menage a trafe" !

Oy!

Posted by MusicGuy @ 08/28/2003 07:40 PM PST

DR MattH -- Don't be too literal with the word "married" with Mr. Manilow.....I'm pretty sure that by now, Mr. M. has been partnered in a loving relationship.

Takes all kinds of trees in the forest you know.

Posted by MusicGuy @ 08/28/2003 07:42 PM PST

Just to let you know there is reciprocal reading of posts Michael, my vote is for New Orleans.

Posted by Tom from Oz @ 08/28/2003 07:43 PM PST

Will Charlotte's husband "the pig" be home?

Posted by Tom from Oz @ 08/28/2003 07:46 PM PST

S Woody White wrote: On the one hand, we have Sondheim writing for a show (The World of Jules Feiffer) that closed in tryouts, during the very early stages of his career. In comparison we are given Harnick's work, after he had already written Fiorello, She Loves Me, Tenderloin, and Fiddler On the Roof. Comparing the work of a lyricist (during what still counts as his apprenticeship) with the work of another lyricist (with several hit shows to his credit) smacks of an overeagerness to discredit the younger writer.

But at the time Sondheim was working on The World Of Jules Feiffer (1962), he'd already had West Side Story, Gypsy and A Funny Thing Happened on the Way To the Forum. When does this "apprenticeship" thing end? If I have hits as big as West Side Story, Gypsy and Forum can I still call myself an apprentice?

It's a safe bet Harnick was unaware of the earlier Sondheim song, busy as he was marrying amazingly talented women. (Hey, it's getting about time I emulate my idol and do just that!)

Posted by Noel @ 08/28/2003 07:52 PM PST

Hey Sarah you mentioned the only musical I have ever written:

Wulfsical the Musical

It was for a Liberal Arts Class that joined together our English and Humanities (history of theatre strangely enough) courses when we were knee deep in the Middle Ages.

The assignment was to take the story of Beowulf and re-tell it a genre of our choice whether Medieval or Modern.

None of us in my group had any music composition skills. Or lyric writing skills. Or acting skills, now that I think of it. But danggit did we have fun.

I got to play Grendl and growl a lot and blame my anger on a bad childhood. It was very moderne.

The Opening"

"In the Northern lands of long ago
the songs and tales of the time did show
that good was the hero and evil the foe
and narry there was a middle

lyrics I forget lyrics I forget
... the monster they called Grendl!

But now we see it's not so clear
for in good lies some evil
in good evil appears
and the monster is evil
but is that all he is
or can some good be within him?"

Beowulf's "I Want Song":**

"Back at home it was not much fun
I was taunted by everyone.
I didn't have a friend in the world
and everyone called me a sissy girl"

It goes on and on and on and on...

BK... d'you want to produce it? :)

Posted by Emily @ 08/28/2003 08:15 PM PST

Sondheim is incomparable. That
doesn't mean that he is better than
all other msuical theatre writers, he
is just different. There is no "next
Sondheim" just as Sondheim was
not the "next" anyone! I believe that
the nature of his work (and I wish I
could put it better into words) makes
him oranges. Not everyone else is
an apple, but I don't think that
anyone else is an orange. Harnick is
wonderful. Sondheim is wonderful.

I know that the above paragraph
makes very little sense, and will
probably convince nobody, but this
is what I feel, rational or not.

Just to let you all know-I am leaving
on vacation tomorrow for a week. I
am going to the Shaw and Stratford
theatre festivals in Ontario and will
see a wonderfully large number of
plays. I will post again the 5th or the
6th.
Adios, cookies!

Posted by Hapgood @ 08/28/2003 08:18 PM PST

BK--thanks for the suggestion, but when one student suggested The Crucible, just about everyone else including the director looked at her like she was a freak and loudly said NO! Not a very Arthur Miller-friendly club, lol. But I think it's a good play too.

Well, I'm going to have to be errant and truant for the weekend, unfortunately. My friend convinced me to accompany her up to Pittsburgh so I will be up sampling the delights of PA. Hopefully though there will be computer access where were staying or I will go into complete HHW withdrawal...and I won't be happy...

Well, goodnight everyone! Happy trails...

Posted by Maya @ 08/28/2003 08:20 PM PST

Our school did The Crucible the year before last, and it was awesome, they did a great job.

I've been forgetting to remind that I won't be here Sunday night for the chat, as I'm going to see the Nat'l tour of TMM, and then my friends are spending the night, and I sincerely doubt that they're going to want to sit there and read during chat. I'll probably miss the whole thing anyway. But I WILL be around until about 5 ish.

Emily: Loved your Beowulf songs. Not exactly Broadway material, but entertaining ;)

BK: I really hope posterity didn't come out of that marriage. :)

Goodnight fellow cookies :)

Posted by Sarah @ 08/28/2003 08:42 PM PST

My random thought for the day: I will be overjoyed when the Do Not Call List takes effect in October. A reminder: the deadline for signing up for the list is Sunday.

Posted by Laura @ 08/28/2003 09:48 PM PST

Is that cryptic Laura? Does that mean your African friends can't call you to ask for your help in investing money and burying husbands? Have laws really been passed to stop "telemarketing"? Will you not heed a calling? You may miss your vocation. Are DRs Kerry & MusicGuy not allowed to call you for help?
Have I nothing better to do this afternoon?

Posted by Tom from Oz @ 08/28/2003 09:55 PM PST

The number that pops into my head most often from "The Rothschilds" is the show's thrilling climax, "Bonds." It's a great idea for a musical theatre "action scene," with sudden changes in tempo and brief reprises of earlier melodies representing the two competing groups of brokers trying to undersell each other before everyone goes broke. (I think that's what's happening, I'm not a finance expert.)

I've got a "screener" copy I've never watched of a recent animated film called "Aaron's Magic Village," left over from when I interned at a film distributor. It's based on stories by Isaac Bashevis Singer, and has songs by Harnick and Michel Legrande. Has anyone seen this? I think I'll watch it next, now that I'm reminded of it.

I heard that Bock & Harnick reunited briefly to brush up "Rothschilds" and "She Loves Me" for their recent revivals. Any truth to it? Are they working on anything else?

I should have thought of this yesterday, but whatever became of Strouse and Adams' musical of Dreiser's "American Tragedy" (the book the Liz Taylor/Montgomery Clift "A Place in the Sun" is based on)?

Posted by Sigerson Holmes @ 08/29/2003 12:02 AM PST

Dave defended the ear-numbing generic music of Frank Wildhorn by pointing out how so many Rodgers and Hart scores sound so similar. But, in the 20s and 30s, being true to time and place was not a composer's concern. Musical comedies were supposed to be springboards for hit songs, and the tunes often needed to gel with the humor of the lyric. Rodgers and Hart, of course, did this all in spades, producing a cascade of hits, including some of the wittiest songs ever written.

By the time Rodgers was writing with Hammerstein, he (like Loewe and Bock) was using time and place to shape his music to marvelous effect. The turn-of-the-century Oklahoma sounds nothing like the exotic strains the Siamese children march to. Contemporary Chinatown sounds a long way off from the Landlers and yodel songs of Austria, etc. It was mentioned that tunes written for one show would end up in another and I can only think of one example: the tune for a song called Suddenly Lucky was written for Cable to sing to Liat in South Pacific. It's vanilla, as Cable's a WASP in a strange land, and, to me, sounds a little juvenile. Luckily, on their next show they needed a tune for a woman from Wales to teach to a bunch of children in Siam, and the new Hammerstein lyric made Getting To Know You perfect for The King and I. It was never perfect for South Pacific, which needed something more sophisticated, namely, Younger Than Springtime.

Posted by Noel @ 08/29/2003 02:12 AM PST

Just wanted to drop in and say good morning to you all before I depart to pris-...I mean, school.

And now to go downstairs and find myself some *serious* coffee (:

Posted by Sarah @ 08/29/2003 04:55 AM PST

So Elaine May was married to Sheldon Leonard - huh? How come he never let her be on MAKE ROOM FOR DADDY?

8-D

What a lot of posts to read this morning. I had to return my Compaq Presario to the famed WalMart and get a new one...so I am starting ALL OVER!! But at least this time, I am not facing the FREEZE!!

Lulu - I always stop for a moment at FANTASY ISLAND and THE LOVE BOAT...where else can you find Myrna Loy, Helen Hayes, and Douglas Fairbanks, Jr, in a love triangle?

Laura - the No-Call list has been used in Indiana for over a year...it really really works (slices, dices, and makes Julian fries)...so nice to not be bothered!

Friday!!!!

Posted by Jrand53 @ 08/29/2003 05:38 AM PST

DR Music Guy, believe me, I'm not naive enough to think Barry Manilow has not had serious relationships in his life. I was meaning strictly the (for now) legal definition of marriage.

Posted by Matt H. @ 08/29/2003 06:12 AM PST

...goes together like a horse and carriage, you know.

Posted by Frank Sinatra @ 08/29/2003 06:14 AM PST

Noel, another R&H interpolation is "This Was a Real Nice Hayride", from OKLAHOMA!, which found its way into CAROUSEL as "This Was a Real Nice Clambake".

The addition of different "colours" to suggest time and place is well noted, but it could also be posited that Rodgers always returned to the familiar sounds of contemporary Broadway. When he needed a ballad for the young lovers, the sound was pure Broadway - whether it was sung by a pair of young Asian slaves ("I Have Dreamed"), a midwestern farmboy and his best girl ("People Will Say We're in Love"), or a New England carnival barker and his best girl ("If I Loved You").

Likewise, Wildhorn is using the sound of contemporary music in his scores, and adds a bit of flavouring to suggest time and place. Contrast the harpsichord figures in songs like "They Seek Him Here" in THE SCARLET PIMPERNEL with the acoustic guitar sounds in much of THE CIVIL WAR, and you'll see what I mean.

Please don't think I am trying to put Wildhorn in the same league as Rodgers. I am only trying to point out that the oft-repeated refrain that Wildhorn is "generic" applies a standard that is never applied to other composers, which seems more than a little unfair.

Posted by Dave @ 08/29/2003 06:58 AM PST