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Author Topic: FACTOIDS  (Read 23538 times)

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Noel

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #120 on: January 27, 2004, 03:45:12 PM »

Well, Noel, I was specifically talking about my novels.  Those are for me.  When I write a musical, of course I listen to everyone - anyone who has a good idea.  I mean, I hope you weren't trying to imply otherwise, or I will have to bitch-slap you from here to eternity for being so blind.  I mean, it was SO obvious what I was talking about, and here you turn it around into something wholly other.  Shame on you.

Any writer in the theater is going to listen and learn, both from audiences, their director, the actors, a stagehand, whoever.

What I'm writing about is the difference between writing for the theatre, writing a novel, and writing for Hollywood, BK.  I can understand why you'd enjoy writing novels, as the novelist can be answerable to nobody.  As DR Panni and Pogue have been telling us - the Hollywood writer can have his work savaged by a rewriter, and these rewriters are called in by studio execs who know nothing more than how to read box office receipts.  And I love the Peter Hall quote from yesterday about how collaborators are in service of a playwright.

I was thinking, reading yesterday's posts, that the business of screenwriting sounds so awful, some DRs might wonder why anybody does it.  Glad to see that answered.
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Noel

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #121 on: January 27, 2004, 03:52:39 PM »

Noel, maybe you mentioned this a different day, but what is your reason for not seeing LOTR; ROTK?  I thought I was the only man left standing who had no desire to sit through the rest of the trilogy.  I am not a great fan of science fiction, although I enjoy some of it, but I sat through Part I, because everyone told me I had to watch it, and I truly don't think I have ever been so bored in my life.

Honestly,  I am glad that other people find the books to be so wonderful, and I am glad that the films live up to everyone's expectations, but please, please spare me the agony of sitting through any more of the Ring films.

I prefer films in which characters I recognize as human behave in ways that I recognize as human.  In every bit of sci-fi or fantasy, there's something I don't understand when I've entered the cinema: now, maybe that's the power of some ring, or a guy turning green when he gets angry.  It's not human behavior, and I just don't have the patience to learn the "rules" of the fantasy.

What are rules?  Stuff like: "If you're bitten by a vampire, you become a vampire too.  A silver stake through your heart is the only thing that can kill you."

To me, this is nonsense, and I find I actually resent having to learn this stuff, just so I can understand one movie.

I sat through all of the first rings; then, when so many people were saying the third ring was so good, I thought I'd take a look at the second ring on DVD, but I could not keep my eyes open after one hour.  So, I've devoted nearly four hours to trying to understand the rules of Middle Earth.  And that's more than enough.  I give up.
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Jrand74

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #122 on: January 27, 2004, 04:15:58 PM »

DR Robin Anderson - cute photo!
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Charles Pogue

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #123 on: January 27, 2004, 04:27:14 PM »

Here's another Peter Hall quote: "For forty years, I have observed a very simple rule:  as the director I can say anything I like about the text, but it remains the playwright's perogative to make the final decision.  In exchange, the playwright can make any comment about the production but the final decision rests with me."

If only film directors collaborated this eminently sensible way, I would be a very happy man.

When I am writing, the only audience I listen to me.  It is the only audience I can listen to.  I cannot anticipate what the audience will think, so I do not think about what the audience wants, only what I want.  I write to please myself.  I don't know how any writer can write any other way.

After all, I think that it is the job of the artist...not to give the audience what it wants, but to make the audience want what he gives.

The artist tells the audience, the audience doesn't tell the artist.

That's why I hate the studio preview screenings and their little cards they have audiences fill out.  It's asking amateurs to do the work of professionals.  I once heard the late Peter Stone speak (he wrote books for 1776, KEAN, Will Rogers, so many others) and I wrote down something he said:

"Together the audience is always right; individually they're always wrong."  Very wise.

Yes, observing the audience during previews can be very valuable but the danger comes in trusting the audience's opinion.  They may get restless in the second act, but it may be because of something you did or didn't do in the first act.  They may not like a character, but don't trust what they tell you about why.  

That is the job of the professional. To read the audience, gauge their reaction, and figure out what specifically is wrong.  An audience may know something's wrong, but they rarely know why.

I have no use for audience participation in the theatre.

I also spurn writer's groups.  I find when you invite someone to critique your work, that means to most people to find the faults.  They'll look for negatives, rather than positives.  What is particularly amusing is all these groups of aspiring writers who get together to critique each other.  Amateurs who haven't broken in yet, critiquing other amateurs.

I prefer to trust my own instincts.  I firmly believe a professional knows when he's done good work.  That's what being a professional is all about.  That doesn't mean the work is perfect or can't be changed or tweaked or improved, but it means he understands what he's written, why he's written it the way it is, he's covered all his bases and can defend it passionately.

I think the goal of the artist is to say here is something I'm passionate about, that I think has meaning, that will resonate with others...and he exposes it to an audience to see if he's right.  It's at that point the audience responds.  And the artist either succeeds or fails.  

But if he starts to tailor or re-fashion something he is passionate about to serve the whims and desires of the audience, he is not serving his voice or his art.  He should only alter his work to make his voice clearer to the audience...but not even then if he feels it compromises and does not serve the work.

Audiences will change, but art remains art.  There have been many failed or neglected pieces of art that were later re-assessed with new eyes.  Van Gogh only sold one painting during his life time.

Author Dennis Brown in a lovely book called SHOPTALK, about various practitioners of the theatre, mentions a visit to Harold Clurman to discuss William Inge.

"As I prepared to leave Harold Clurman's apartment, he insisted on giving me a book...MR. GEORGE JEAN NATHAN PRESENTS, a collection of theatre essays by the eminent drama critic, published and purchased in 1917.  That evening, I perused my gift and discovered that Clurman had underlined only one sentence in the entire volume:

"The artist is contemptuous of the crowd."

I keep that Nathan quote close to my heart just like the Peter Hall quotes.

A writer must never be a slave to the audience.  He must write for himself.
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Charles Pogue

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #124 on: January 27, 2004, 04:39:44 PM »

By the by, re: Panni and Noel's discussion about renumeration in the theatre as opposed to film.

Here's how I survived both.  Whether I was making $75 dollars doing summer theatre or getting six figures to write screenplays, I've always lived like I make half the money I do.

I get so fed up with these whingers in the WGA who every time a possible strike is mentioned, screamed:  "We can't strike.  How will I pay my rent, how will I put my kid through school?"

I always groan and say: "Well, gee, you're in the Arts, you should've figured all that out a long time ago, before you started having kids and maxing out your credit cards.  You could be out of work for six months and it have nothing to do with a strike but just mercurial caprices of the business.  How would you pay your rent and put your kids through school then?  I expect you'd go out and get a real job.  If you're out of work because of a strike at least your Guild is trying to improve your working conditions.  So get real and try and sacrifice a  little for the common good."
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Charles Pogue

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #125 on: January 27, 2004, 04:42:51 PM »

Noel to answer your comment that screenwriting sounds so awful you wonder why anyone does it...  Because every once in a while, they get it right and it works.  So, from job to job, we always live in hope.  we're writers...the only people who can be idealists and cynics at the same time.
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bk

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #126 on: January 27, 2004, 04:46:43 PM »

I agree with most of the above.  It's why I hate these Internet theater boards so much.  Those people really think that they have all the answers from seeing something in previews once.  I loathe them.  And the fact that theater professionals actually send people on there to read that stuff is so indicative of the way all aspects of the business are today.

And that's why writing the books was the most fulfilling thing I've done, writing-wise.  I was the last word, I wrote what I wanted, in the way I wanted to and I, again, didn't care if people liked it or not.  I wanted them to like it, but if they hadn't, it wouldn't have mattered to me because I was pleased.  I didn't follow certain rules in writing them the way I want, and I don't have "acts" and "arcs" (maybe I do but I didn't think about that crap when writing) - I just did it the way it felt right to me and that was that.

With my screenplays, I've been lucky - I didn't have to change much of anything with either Nudie or Creature Wasn't Nice.  I do remember the producer of Nudie doing a polish on my script, and I systematically removed every single change he made and told him he couldn't make the movie unless we made the script.  That doesn't mean that once I got scenes on their feet that the actors and I didn't improve them - we did.  We found things in rehearsal that I never would have thought of.  We worked together but it was the movie I wanted to make.

On the second film, it was taken away for all the reasons Pogue states - idiots filling out preview cards.  It was totally recut to reflect the "Airplane" mentality that was the flavor of that year.  It wasn't designed to be that and they ruined the film.  And, of course, twenty-two years later, what they did looks absolutely dated and inane, whereas I've shown my cut of the film to people and it holds up well because it doesn't pander to the "style" of the day.  

With the musicals I've written - yes, I can hear when the audience is restless, I can hear when a song isn't landing in the way I'd hoped - but I'm smart enough to tell when it might be the performance of the direction's fault rather than the material, and I'm also smart enough to know when I can do better.
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Charles Pogue

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #127 on: January 27, 2004, 04:52:05 PM »

Noel, I don't know why learning the rules or magic of the world you've entered is any different in learning the specifics of the world of, say, Master and Commander or Stephen Sondheim's Sweeny Todd.

Plays and movies are always spewing information, backstory, exposition, character background, foreshadowing that the audience must follow and maintain some grasp of in order to understand and enjoy the drama.

One does expect the audience to minimally pay attention and listen.  It's how drama unfolds; we learn things we previously did not know.  There isn't much point in having everything just wash over a lazy audience in lowest-common denominator fashion.  They should be expected to work a little for it.  

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Danise

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #128 on: January 27, 2004, 04:57:11 PM »

Evening all!  Hope you had a nice day!

I prefer films in which characters I recognize as human behave in ways that I recognize as human.  In every bit of sci-fi or fantasy, there's something I don't understand when I've entered the cinema: now, maybe that's the power of some ring, or a guy turning green when he gets angry.  It's not human behavior, and I just don't have the patience to learn the "rules" of the fantasy.

What are rules?  Stuff like: "If you're bitten by a vampire, you become a vampire too.  A silver stake through your heart is the only thing that can kill you."

To me, this is nonsense, and I find I actually resent having to learn this stuff, just so I can understand one movie.

I sat through all of the first rings; then, when so many people were saying the third ring was so good, I thought I'd take a look at the second ring on DVD, but I could not keep my eyes open after one hour.  So, I've devoted nearly four hours to trying to understand the rules of Middle Earth.  And that's more than enough.  I give up.

Errr, Noel, you don't ALWAYS turn into a vampire if your bitten.  You can just die.  You have to drink of the blood of a vampire to be turned.  And it's wooden stake.  Hawthorn, if possible.  You then stuff the mouth with garlic and cut off the head, if you want the vampire to be really, truely dead for all time and even THAT won't work if there's a sequel.   :D  The vampire heart can grow back, after a time.  

Werewolfs are the ones who fear silver be it a bullet or a silver's wolf head cane, like Barnabas Collins (a vampire himself) carried.  You have to remember the old poem:

Even a man who is pure in heart
and says his prayers by night.
May become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms
And the moon is full and bright.

I don't know how I know all this stuff, I just do.  

Didn't we say "Happy Birthday" to Music Guy yesterday?  Did I mess up again?  I'm sorry.  I'll get it right someday.

[move=left,scroll,6,transparent,100%] Happy Birthday, Music Guy!!![/move]

Congrats to the newest Goddess! All hail, Panni!  Ye Gods!

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bk

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #129 on: January 27, 2004, 05:00:54 PM »

I am enjoying this discussion, by the way (BTW, in Internet lingo).  
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Charles Pogue

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #130 on: January 27, 2004, 05:01:57 PM »

BK, I've never written to acts or all those Syd Field rules either.  But when I'm finished with it, I can tell you where the acts are and probably teach a basic screenwriting course, using that script alone.

You find so many young writers hung up on format or guidelines for amateurs that they think are commandments come down from Mount.  "Oh, oh, what am I going to do? My first act doesn't end on page 32 like Syd Field said it should.  Oh, Oh, I have too many pages.  Oh, Oh, should I bind my script with three brads or two (always three is my answer)?"  We should just kill all these screenwriting gurus, most of whom have never had a successful screenwriting career.

"There too many notes."

"There are as many notes as necessary."

-- a  half-assed remembered quote from AMADEUS
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Noel

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #131 on: January 27, 2004, 05:15:50 PM »

Errr, Noel, you don't ALWAYS turn into a vampire if your bitten.  You can just die.  You have to drink of the blood of a vampire to be turned.  And it's wooden stake.  Hawthorn, if possible.  You then stuff the mouth with garlic and cut off the head, if you want the vampire to be really, truely dead for all time and even THAT won't work if there's a sequel.   :D  The vampire heart can grow back, after a time.  

Werewolfs are the ones who fear silver be it a bullet or a silver's wolf head cane,

Thank you, Danise, for a great illustration of the sort of "rules" I can't be bothered to keep in my head, even for the length of a movie.

Sweeney Todd?  Nothng super-natural there.  I didn't have to learn anything new about how the characters behave to enjoy that.

Master and Commander is very fresh in my mind.  I certainly enjoyed learning what I learned about the naval battles of 200 years ago, and hope I can apply this knowledge to some other sea tale someday.

But all that Tolkien palaver - the powers of a wizard, the diet of a hobbit, the language of the elves - what am I going to use all this information for?  The enjoyment of one trilogy.  It's too much to ask.  I pass.
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Charles Pogue

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #132 on: January 27, 2004, 05:16:09 PM »

BK, I'm enjoying the discussion too.

 I also enjoy that you unashamedly say you write to please yourself.  As it should be.  You're saying to your readers: "This has meaning for me, does it have meaning for you?"  And those it does have meaning for...?  They are your audience!  You cannot write for an unknown audience.  You have to deliver the work and it will find its audience.  That's where so much work goes awry...they're trying to acquire an audience than the work doesn't speak to.  

Just because SAND OF HOUSE & FOG doesn't get as big an audience as LORD OF THE RINGS doesn't make it any less successfully in artistic terms.  There is an audience it speaks to.  

Everything cannot be a blockbuster, nor is it meant to be a blockbuster.  Unfortunately, the blockbuster mentality is making it hard for smaller pieces of work to exist.  

The great thing about the old studios was they balanced their slate.  Different pictures for different tastes, different people.  Now everything has to open with a 20 million dollar weekend.
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Panni

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #133 on: January 27, 2004, 05:19:48 PM »

Well, obviously I was sleeping through some really interesting conversation. I also have SHOPTALK and many other books in which writers, directors, actors talk about their craft. That - and actually seeing the stuff on the screen, good and bad - is really the only way to learn anything about screenwriting. These SCREENWRITING FOR IDIOTS type of books drive me crazy.

Two things I want to comment on. First, and I know this is sacrilege - but sometimes I don't mind the notes (I just wish I didn't have to listen to all of them. And actually, I don't. Because the Big Secret is that they give out so many notes on so many scripts that they forget half of what they tell you.). Now why I don't mind the notes is the "pearl effect." You know, a pearl is created by friction - a parasite (perfect!) or a bit of something foreign invades the inner lining of the shell and a protective substance is produced around it - which eventually becomes a beautiful pearl. So, in writing terms, if they bug me enough - I might actually produce something which makes it better. Usually not specifically by following their notes - but simply by reexamining the whole thing.

The second thing I want to comment on, DS (Dear Scribe) Pogue,  is your contention that writers should know better than to spend all their money. Well, yes, ideally, I'm there. But shit happens. Lawsuits, deadbeat ex-husbands, children to put through school, etc. My number one aim would be to spend half of what I make. And I think within the next few years that may happen. But I don't want to be thought of as some flighty spendthrift for not having done that so far.
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Danise

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #134 on: January 27, 2004, 05:21:56 PM »

Well, DR Noel. I don't know what to say.  I was raised with that stuff so it's like 2nd nature to me.  I find the everyday movie to hum drum to be bothered with.  Give me a dragon, a unicorn, a vampire any day of the week.  

Bruce, you didn't say anything about what I said  about the books.  You didn't like what I said?  
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Panni

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #135 on: January 27, 2004, 05:26:39 PM »

Let me make clear that if I had my choice, I would only get notes from people who actually know what they're talking about. We know how often that happens! But as we get notes whether we like them or not, The Pearl Effect is my way of dealing with them.
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Noel

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #136 on: January 27, 2004, 05:27:59 PM »

Where's Panni for all of this?

In essence, we're agreeing about all sorts of things...

Listening to the audience, as it's done in theatre, definitely involves having a keen eye for exactly how they're reacting as a group, rather than what they say on survey cards, or what the numbers on the survey cards add up to.  (And there's no proof those Internet critics have actually attended the show.)  While, to my great regret, I missed a production in Great Britain this past summer, I always try to attend performances of my shows.  It is only by sitting with the audience that I can learn from them.

I'm glad Van Gogh existed, and there are, clearly, artists who listen to no one but themselves and sell no paintings and are acknowledged long after their deaths as brilliant.  That's not for me.

I don't even think of myself as an artist.  The word I prefer is "entertainer."  And if I haven't entertained my audience, I've failed.  I'm not doing this to please myself.  And I wouldn't give an ear to live the life of Van Gogh.  Doesn't sound like fun to me.
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Panni

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #137 on: January 27, 2004, 05:30:24 PM »

"My number one aim would be to spend half of what I make. And I think within the next few years that may happen. But I don't want to be thought of as some flighty spendthrift for not having done that so far."
And let me clarify this as well - there was a time when I was living this way - but then - as I said - shit happened.
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Noel

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #138 on: January 27, 2004, 05:30:56 PM »

Where's Panni for all of this?

Oops!  There she is!
(welcome)
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Panni

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #139 on: January 27, 2004, 05:34:24 PM »

Oops!  There she is!
(welcome)

Thanks. I was sleeping. Amateur doctor's orders.
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DERBRUCER

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #140 on: January 27, 2004, 05:37:09 PM »

In every bit of sci-fi or fantasy, there's something I don't understand when I've entered the cinema: now, maybe that's the power of some ring, or a guy turning green when he gets angry.  It's not human behavior, and I just don't have the patience to learn the "rules" of the fantasy.

What are rules?  Stuff like: "If you're bitten by a vampire, you become a vampire too.  A silver stake through your heart is the only thing that can kill you."


Most of the rules you noted were learned by most of us growing up (age 9-14). Again. for many of us, Fantasy was a wonderful part of growing up - we were read to from the Red, Blue, Green and Yellow Fairy Tale Books; we dreamed of frolicking in Camelot; we couldn't wait 'till the next Horror film hit the neighborhood theatre.

Follow on generations had TV shows like Outer Limits and SciFI Theatre to keep the fantasy muscle's in tone (not to mention endless late night re-runs of Dracula meets whomever.

It's re-visiting these wonderful worlds of youth that make films like "Dragonheart" so delightful.

I feel so sorry for folks who cannot enter a theatre and leave the real world behind. We just returned from seeing "Big Fish" - a thoroughly enchanting film! Like most Burton films, it plays by no rules - one must see it as "Fable", or Fairy Tale, or surrealistic fantasy.

der Brucer (happily still in touch with his inner-child)

If I wanted an experience in which characters I recognize as human behave in ways that I recognize as human, I wouldn't go to a film, I'd ride the subway - ultimately authentic and a bit more inexpensive.
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DERBRUCER

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #141 on: January 27, 2004, 05:44:02 PM »


And that's why writing the books was the most fulfilling thing I've done, writing-wise.  I was the last word, I wrote what I wanted, in the way I wanted to and I, again, didn't care if people liked it or not.  I wanted them to like it, but if they hadn't, it wouldn't have mattered to me because I was pleased.  

Oh, I saw you in action at your book readings/signings - you weren't just "pleased" when people liked your stuff, you positively glowed! Surely you enjoy it when people are pleased by what pleases you.

der Brucer
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Danise

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #142 on: January 27, 2004, 05:44:34 PM »

Most of the rules you noted were learned by most of us growing up (age 9-14). Again. for many of us, Fantasy was a wonderful part of growing up - we were read to from the Red, Blue, Green and Yellow Fairy Tale Books; we dreamed of frolicking in Camelot; we couldn't wait 'till the next Horror film hit the neighborhood theatre.

Follow on generations had TV shows like Outer Limits and SciFI Theatre to keep the fantasy muscle's in tone (not to mention endless late night re-runs of Dracula meets whomever.

It's re-visiting these wonderful worlds of youth that make films like "Dragonheart" so delightful.

I feel so sorry for folks who cannot enter a theatre and leave the real world behind. We just returned from seeing "Big Fish" - a thoroughly enchanting film! Like most Burton films, it plays by no rules - one must see it as "Fable", or Fairy Tale, or surrealistic fantasy.

der Brucer (happily still in touch with his inner-child)

If I wanted an experience in which characters I recognize as human behave in ways that I recognize as human, I wouldn't go to a film, I'd ride the subway - ultimately authentic and a bit more inexpensive.


Wow!  I still have my Red, Yellow, Blue fairytale books.  I love them.  If you look below the stories, there are lessons  to be learned.  Do you, by any chance, know the salt story, DERBRUCER?  The 3rd princess who tells her father "I look on you as I look upon the salt in my food?"  and he gets mad and kicks her out?  I LOVE that story.  
« Last Edit: January 27, 2004, 05:50:31 PM by Danise »
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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #143 on: January 27, 2004, 05:53:47 PM »

Noel, maybe you mentioned this a different day, but what is your reason for not seeing LOTR; ROTK?  I thought I was the only man left standing who had no desire to sit through the rest of the trilogy.  I am not a great fan of science fiction, although I enjoy some of it, but I sat through Part I, because everyone told me I had to watch it, and I truly don't think I have ever been so bored in my life.

Actually, I haven't seen any of the 3 LOTR films.  Nor any of the Star Wars films (not a single scene of the newer ones, and never seen any of the original trilogy in total).  I also think I may have been the only person (other than DearReaderLaura, of course :)) who never saw Titanic in '97-'98.  Just seems that many of the box-office blockbusters simply don't interest me, and if I'm not interested in seeing a movie, I don't really see any reason to watch it ("movie literacy" be damned, I wanna enjoy my two hours).

As for this year's nominees, I've only seen 4 movies that are up for anything: Mystic River, A Mighty Wind, Pirates of the Caribbean, and Finding Nemo.  A few others I will surely catch on DVD sooner or later.
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Jed

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #144 on: January 27, 2004, 06:07:04 PM »

I prefer films in which characters I recognize as human behave in ways that I recognize as human.  In every bit of sci-fi or fantasy, there's something I don't understand when I've entered the cinema: now, maybe that's the power of some ring, or a guy turning green when he gets angry.  It's not human behavior, and I just don't have the patience to learn the "rules" of the fantasy.

Thank you, DR Noel, for putting into words what I've tried to explain to people for years.  I've never been able to get into fantasy or sci-fi, a fact that confounds many of my friends.  I think it is largely the "rules"... I just can't be bothered.
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Jed

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #145 on: January 27, 2004, 06:08:14 PM »

BK - I think we should all be petitioning for a director's cut DVD of The Creature Wasn't Nice.
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Michael

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #146 on: January 27, 2004, 06:09:07 PM »

New film coming out:

Town Without Gene Pitney.

His songs are banned from the airwaves of the local radio station until the adults take action!!
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TCB

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #147 on: January 27, 2004, 06:14:54 PM »

New film coming out:

Town Without Gene Pitney.

His songs are banned from the airwaves of the local radio station until the adults take action!!

Michael Shayne, you are too funny!
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td

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #148 on: January 27, 2004, 06:16:24 PM »

Regarding LORD OF THE RINGS (and mostly all forms of film) IF you can understand THE GOAL, and what the characters will do to ACHIEVE the GOAL, that' entertainment.
If the characters' GOAL is not the primary source of the plot, then something is definitely wrong.
I certainly don't know Ancient Greek culture, but, I can appreciate a good MEDEA or OEDIPUS REX, or even Disney's HERCULES.
Knowing that Lewis Carroll's life bordered on pedophilia doesn't make ALICE IN WONDERLAND any less ENTERTAINING.
Lord knows, I've tried to read Tolkien over the years, I find him dense and wordy; but, Peter Jackson created characters whose plight I became involved in on an emotional level; I bought into their goal and was rewarded with three films unlike any other that I had ever seen.  What mythology was needed to comprehend that a ring forged by a powerful force must be destroyed, and that the only way that ring may be destroyed is to throw it into the flames of Mordor.
I don't think it's completely necessary to know ALL that has been written about Tolkien's writing, the ANALyses which could fill a library.
Unless you find a character, or characteristic, which you personally can identify - and Tolkien's world is filled with HUMAN CHARACTERISTICS - then there's really no point to the story-telling.
Of course all of my above ramblings could be applied to MOULIN ROUGE - do you have to know the mythology of courtesans to appreciate the CHARACTER of Satine? (Don't get me wrong, I don't think that Nicole Kidman brings anything to the table with her portrayal, and I have a love/hate relationship with the film itself).  Knowing the mythology of courtesans brings up GIGI, which becomes quite unseemly when thoughts of courtesanary arises around a fourteen year old girl.

Personally, I find that the movies I like most, present easily understood GOALS and CONFLICTS and OBSTACLES, thematic devices which a recognizable as human - whether they be faults, flaws or positive attributes.

I'm also entranced by today's lively discussion; it has me besotted.
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Charles Pogue

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Re:FACTOIDS
« Reply #149 on: January 27, 2004, 06:16:35 PM »

Noel, I think the only reason to do almost anything, certainly as a choice of vocation, is to please yourself.  

Panni, I definitely believe in the Pearl Effect...have had notes that irritate me or I was resistant to that eventually produced something better.  But again, people have to articulate and help the veil to lift and shake you into a new way of thinking about something with some sort of passionate clarity and collaboration, not demanding or insisting without reason.  I love sitting with a director or a producer who will go through a script with you page by page, line by line, word by word, if necessary, and wallow in the details with me.  I love the creative debate, just not creative imperiousness.

And yes, smart notes can be a joy.  Notes from smart folk, not dumb folk.

Panni, Did I say spend half my money?  I meant to say I try to live like I only MAKE half of what I make.  Then when shit and the emergencies happen, I've usually got something in the nest-egg to handle it.  It's the Scotch and the Dutch in me, I'm always thinking that it all could end tomorrow, so I sack it away for worse case scenarios.  I still have had plenty to enjoy my life.  There's really not all that much difference between business class and first class.  

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