Topic: THE OPENING SALVO (Read 35609 times)

Jeanne · « **Reply #90 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:16:52 AM »

Quote from: elmore3003 on January 09, 2008, 07:33:31 AM

DR Julie, Ben and I are big fans of the series as well, but my memory is that several DRs thought very little of it.

I, too, am a fan. IIRC, people either really like it or they don't!

S. Woody White · « **Reply #91 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:17:51 AM »

Roasting the bones gives them a deeper flavor, like caramelizing the natural sugars, which will result in a deeper flavored stock. It's kind of like the difference between a raw hunk of prime rib, and one that has been roasted slowly in the oven for a few hours. Even if you like your prime rib rare, I don't think it would taste too good uncooked.

And bones can add a lot to the flavor of meat. There's a lot of stuff in them, gelatins, marrow flavors, natural sugars and things that seep into the meat while cooking. This is part of why a t-bone steak tastes so good.

I'm using a mix of bone types: marrow bones (from the legs), ribs, and neck bones. There's about eight pounds worth, all told. The ribs and neck bones still have a good amount of meat on them, which should also add nice flavor to the stock. I roasted them for close to two hours in a 400 degree oven.

Roasting the carrots, onions, and celery ribs also caramelizes the sugars.

After putting all the bones and veg in the stock pot, I poured off the accumulated fat from the roasting pan and then deglazed the pan with some water, and poured the deglazing liquid into the pot. Deglazing means dissolving all the caramelized and browned good bits that have stuck to the bottom of the pan - no sense in wasting all that flavor! I could have used wine - alcohol is a great deglazing liquid - but I didn't want the wine flavors in my stock this time around.

Yep, the bones go into the pot. The next step in making stock is to cover everything with water and let it all slowly simmer for several hours. All the flavor that is in the bones and veg will slowly leach out into the water, creating stock. And this is something that needs to be done slowly. There are impurities and oils that will also leach out of the bones, stuff that isn't wanted. If the water was let to boil, the impurities would incorporate into the stock, creating off-flavors. However, since the impurities are lighter than water, they will float to the surface during the simmer, where they can be skimmed off.

The whole process of making stock isn't all that labor intensive, but it does take time.

Ron Pulliam · « **Reply #92 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:20:41 AM »

Quote from: S. Woody White on January 09, 2008, 09:17:51 AM

Roasting the bones gives them a deeper flavor, like caramelizing the natural sugars, which will result in a deeper flavored stock. It's kind of like the difference between a raw hunk of prime rib, and one that has been roasted slowly in the oven for a few hours. Even if you like your prime rib rare, I don't think it would taste too good uncooked.

And bones can add a lot to the flavor of meat. There's a lot of stuff in them, gelatins, marrow flavors, natural sugars and things that seep into the meat while cooking. This is part of why a t-bone steak tastes so good.

I'm using a mix of bone types: marrow bones (from the legs), ribs, and neck bones. There's about eight pounds worth, all told. The ribs and neck bones still have a good amount of meat on them, which should also add nice flavor to the stock. I roasted them for close to two hours in a 400 degree oven.

Roasting the carrots, onions, and celery ribs also caramelizes the sugars.

After putting all the bones and veg in the stock pot, I poured off the accumulated fat from the roasting pan and then deglazed the pan with some water, and poured the deglazing liquid into the pot. Deglazing means dissolving all the caramelized and browned good bits that have stuck to the bottom of the pan - no sense in wasting all that flavor! I could have used wine - alcohol is a great deglazing liquid - but I didn't want the wine flavors in my stock this time around.

Yep, the bones go into the pot. The next step in making stock is to cover everything with water and let it all slowly simmer for several hours. All the flavor that is in the bones and veg will slowly leach out into the water, creating stock. And this is something that needs to be done slowly. There are impurities and oils that will also leach out of the bones, stuff that isn't wanted. If the water was let to boil, the impurities would incorporate into the stock, creating off-flavors. However, since the impurities are lighter than water, they will float to the surface during the simmer, where they can be skimmed off.

The whole process of making stock isn't all that labor intensive, but it does take time.

Very instructive! Thank you!

JoseSPiano · « **Reply #93 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:20:50 AM »

...Although, it's also just as easy enough to buy a family pack of chicken wings and necks to make a stock a la minute. Well, not quite a la minute, but at least you don't have to wait until you have a stockpile of chicken bones in your freezer if you want to make a stock "now".

JoseSPiano · « **Reply #94 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:22:14 AM »

DR SWW - So... layers of cheesecloth? and/or a chinois?

Ron Pulliam · « **Reply #95 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:23:02 AM »

This next question may seem silly, but.....

...where do you get the bones? Do you ask for them at the butcher's counter at a local grocery?

JoseSPiano · « **Reply #96 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:24:09 AM »

Hmm... For some reason, I think I'm the mood for cassoulet for dinner tonight. Hmm...

Ron Pulliam · « **Reply #97 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:24:42 AM »

Quote from: JoseSPiano on January 09, 2008, 09:20:50 AM

...Although, it's also just as easy enough to buy a family pack of chicken wings and necks to make a stock a la minute. Well, not quite a la minute, but at least you don't have to wait until you have a stockpile of chicken bones in your freezer if you want to make a stock "now".

I do chicken stock several times a year when I make Brunswick stew. I slap a chicken in a heavy pot, cover with water and let it simmer for a couple of hours.

The stock gets strained...the skin and bones get tossed...and the chicken is diced and thrown into the stewpot.

JoseSPiano · « **Reply #98 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:26:34 AM »

Quote from: Ron Pulliam on January 09, 2008, 09:23:02 AM

This next question may seem silly, but.....

...where do you get the bones? Do you ask for them at the butcher's counter at a local grocery?

Yes. Some larger stores will even sell them pre-packaged in the meat case. -Actually, even my small "bodega" up the street sells "stock bones".

Otherwise, it pays to make friends with your butcher. Or at least work in a supermarket so that you can get first dibs.

Ron Pulliam · « **Reply #99 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:29:02 AM »

Quote from: JoseSPiano on January 09, 2008, 09:16:22 AM

Additionally, the roasting of the bones helps to develop the flavor and color of the resulting stock, and aids in the extraction of every bit of flavorful goodness in the bones. *You can do the same thing for chicken stock - I know many a person who store chicken "skeletons" in the freezer after making and consuming a roast chicken. -And, yes, you can also make a "dark" chicken stock by roasting the bones.

It's all about fond, caramelization, gelatin (marrow) and flavor.

You'll have to show me. Do this and have someone make a DVD of it!

Jeanne · « **Reply #100 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:29:30 AM »

Quote from: Ron Pulliam on January 09, 2008, 08:48:23 AM

With la Shepherd, it all depends on her mood. I've seen her on Leno when it looked like she hadn't washed, or combed, her hair for a week.

I can't speak for Ms Shepherd, but I did comment to my hairdresser one day that so many stars look like they never wash their hair. My hairdresser informed me that that's the style, BUT the hair is clean, ie freshly washed, then they put this goop on it. She then showed me the goop. She agreed that it looks dirty.

I think I would welcome more of the Breck look.

bk · « **Reply #101 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:31:54 AM »

I'm up, a bit later than planned, but it took me a while to fall asleep last night. Trying to de-groggify right now.

bk · « **Reply #102 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:32:14 AM »

No questions?

Jeanne · « **Reply #103 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:34:39 AM »

Just call me old-fashioned--and getting more so!

Jeanne · « **Reply #104 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:36:58 AM »

Quote from: bk on January 09, 2008, 09:32:14 AM

No questions?

We had a question, and a resulting discussion about making stock from scratch. Oh, you mean a question for YOU.

td · « **Reply #105 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:38:02 AM »

Quote from: S. Woody White on January 09, 2008, 07:40:38 AM

Has anyone out there ever wondered what bones Mrs. Lovett used when she made stock for the gravy she made grander with coriander?

Just asking.

She used the bones from Mr. Corry Ander.

S. Woody White · « **Reply #106 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:39:16 AM »

I should end up with maybe three quarts of stock when I'm finished. I'll be divvying that into one-cup lots and freezing them, for use later.

What got me going on this was something that Michael Ruhlman wrote in his blog (which is currently down, or I'd link), about how using plain water is preferable to using canned stock when home-made stock is not available - the canned stuff, in his opinion, has terrible flavor. Sure, I can see his point, to a degree, but I wasn't sure about how much time I wanted to spend making stock on my own. And I couldn't see the point of making French onion soup with water instead of stock - the beefyness contributes so much of the flavor in the final soup.

But then, the next time I made FOS, I tried using a better brand of commercial stock, specifically Kitchen Basics, comes in a red box (their chicken broth is in a mustard-colored box). If you take the time to look at the ingredients on a can of Swanson's, there's lots of additives and preservatives involved. KB doesn't have those. And the resulting soup was leagues better in flavor.

(Just for fun, compare the chicken stock that Swanson's makes with the stuff from KB, poured in two glasses side by side. The stock from KB is the darker of the two by far. And better ingredients result in better tasting food, a bit of knowledge that was lost sometime in the 1950s when manufactured food became all the rage. Julia Child knew better, of course.)

Problem is, KB is pricy.

So, I'm trying my hand at making stock. At about a buck per pound of marrow bones, this should be a lot cheaper than KB; plus I'm getting a base of information so I'll know how to adjust the flavor of the stock through changes in the veg used the next time I make stock.

S. Woody White · « **Reply #107 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:40:35 AM »

Quote from: JoseSPiano on January 09, 2008, 09:22:14 AM

DR SWW - So... layers of cheesecloth? and/or a chinois?

Cheesecloth. I don't own a chinois... yet.

JoseSPiano · « **Reply #108 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:42:43 AM »

Quote from: Ron Pulliam on January 09, 2008, 09:24:42 AM

I do chicken stock several times a year when I make Brunswick stew. I slap a chicken in a heavy pot, cover with water and let it simmer for a couple of hours.

The stock gets strained...the skin and bones get tossed...and the chicken is diced and thrown into the stewpot.

That's probably closer to a chicken broth than a true stock. However, using the same "water" that you used to poach the chicken in does contribute to the final product, and saves a pot "transfer" too.

If you ever find yourself in the mood to make a chicken stock, buy about 2 pounds of chicken wings and/or other bony parts - you draw more flavor out of bones, fat and collagen than muscle (meat).

In a stock pot, saute up your standard mirepoix (carrots, onion and celery) in a little bit of olive oil, then add a whole head of garlic (sliced in half), some herbs (preferably in a bouquet garni), salt and pepper, the chicken wings, and four quarts of cold water. Bring it to a boil, then lower to a simmer, and simmer for about two hours. -Skimming off the "stuff" that rises to the top. Once it's done, just pour it through a fine-mesh sieve and/or a couple layers of cheesecloth and/or a chinois, discarding the bones and vegetables. -And you have Stock!

*If you'd like a "brown" chicken stock, roast the chicken wings in the oven until nicely browned, then deglaze the pan, etc., etc., etc.

Ron Pulliam · « **Reply #109 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:45:20 AM »

Quote from: JoseSPiano on January 09, 2008, 09:42:43 AM

That's probably closer to a chicken broth than a true stock. However, using the same "water" that you used to poach the chicken in does contribute to the final product, and saves a pot "transfer" too.

If you ever find yourself in the mood to make a chicken stock, buy about 2 pounds of chicken wings and/or other bony parts - you draw more flavor out of bones, fat and collagen than muscle (meat).

In a stock pot, saute up your standard mirepoix (carrots, onion and celery) in a little bit of olive oil, then add a whole head of garlic (sliced in half), some herbs (preferably in a bouquet garni), salt and pepper, the chicken wings, and four quarts of cold water. Bring it to a boil, then lower to a simmer, and simmer for about two hours. -Skimming off the "stuff" that rises to the top. Once it's done, just pour it through a fine-mesh sieve and/or a couple layers of cheesecloth and/or a chinois, discarding the bones and vegetables. -And you have Stock!

*If you'd like a "brown" chicken stock, roast the chicken wings in the oven until nicely browned, then deglaze the pan, etc., etc., etc.

I was arriving at this conclusion and greatly appreciate the detailed process. Thanks much!

JoseSPiano · « **Reply #110 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:46:19 AM »

And as for poaching chicken...

There's that classic(?) Chinese method where you place a whole chicken in a pot (maybe add a whole onion, roughly chopped), cover it with cold water, bring the water to boil, then turn the heat OFF, and let the pot sit, tightly covered for about 45 minutes. Voila! Perfectly poached chicken!

*And if you taste the water that the chicken has poached at the end of the process, you will notice that it has hardly any "chicken taste". -Which is a good thing, since that means all the chicken flavor stayed in the chicken and was not cooked out of it and into the water.

Jrand73 · « **Reply #111 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:47:49 AM »

Roast Bones.

Yes, I am fine.....but the weather sure is weird around here. Today, though, sunshine and lollipops.

Jrand73 · « **Reply #112 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:49:05 AM »

Wow! I remember Salvo Laundry Detergent. It was a big solid pill that you dropped in your washing machine.

JoseSPiano · « **Reply #113 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:49:12 AM »

...And then if you slowly(!) simmer your stock until it's reduced by half... Talk about a great flavor booster! -Just pour it into ice cube trays, freeze... Then put one or two cubes (or more) in the pot when you need want a little extra flavor in a soup, stew, chili, rice, vegetables, etc.

Jrand73 · « **Reply #114 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:49:51 AM »

Thanks to everyone for the Lansbury and Loudon clips. Wow! And to DRs td and GEORGE for the downloading instructions and links.

Haven't tried it yet....but we shall see what we shall see.

Jrand73 · « **Reply #115 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:50:44 AM »

My first question for ASK BK day:

What is the strangest question you were ever asked at a television audition?

Ron Pulliam · « **Reply #116 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:50:44 AM »

Quote from: JRand57 on January 09, 2008, 09:47:49 AM

Roast Bones.

Yes, I am fine.....but the weather sure is weird around here. Today, though, sunshine and lollipops.

Neck bones roasting on an open fire....

Onions flavoring your toes....

Jrand73 · « **Reply #117 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:51:09 AM »

Quote from: Ron Pulliam on January 09, 2008, 09:50:44 AM

Neck bones roasting on an open fire....

Onions flavoring your toes....

Now I am not hungry anymore.

Ron Pulliam · « **Reply #118 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:51:45 AM »

Quote from: JRand57 on January 09, 2008, 09:49:51 AM

Thanks to everyone for the Lansbury and Loudon clips. Wow! And to DRs td and GEORGE for the downloading instructions and links.

Haven't tried it yet....but we shall see what we shall see.

On my computer, each time I view a clip, I see a "download this video" tab in the upper right-hand corner of the video. Works every time.

S. Woody White · « **Reply #119 on:** January 09, 2008, 09:56:09 AM »

Quote from: Ron Pulliam on January 09, 2008, 09:23:02 AM

This next question may seem silly, but.....

...where do you get the bones? Do you ask for them at the butcher's counter at a local grocery?

Yep. The butchers at good grocery store with a good meat department will be glad to sell you the bones. At our store, they'll even cut them to the right size (about one and a half to two inches long for marrow bones) - any longer, and the bones are too long for the water to effectively get the flavor out.

BTW, Alton Brown has a collection of Good Eats episodes out on DVD, titled "Souped Up". It includes his episodes on using a pressure cooker to make beef broth (which is not stock, broth is much thinner and only uses the meat to get it's flavor, not the bones); making chicken stock; and making vegetable soups. Unfortunately, Food Network isn't selling the disc solo. Sorry.

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Author Topic: THE OPENING SALVO (Read 35609 times)