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Well, you've read the notes, you know the factoids, you know the topic, therefore the only thing left to do is post until the cows come home.
8)
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Oh, and a REAL happy birthday to MusicGuy! Even though we celebrated yesterday because our weird calendar is so hard to make sense of, we still get to party and wear our pointy party hats and colored tights and pantaloons. So there.
(http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/party/party-smiley-020.gif)
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Uh, BK, it's kinda hard to comment on the Oscar nominations when they won't be announced for a few hours yet.
(picky picky picky.)
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Happy real birthday to Music Guy
Real happy birthday to Music Guy
Happy real birth happy real day
Happy birthday to you. Really.
(It works better with the music. :-\)
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Happy birthday, MusicGuy!!! Enjoy your special day!
Off to Philly in a few hours. Take care! I hope to pop in as often as I can!
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Happy day to MusicGuy!!!
Haven't really seen very many movies this year, so I doubt I'll have much to say about the nominations when they're announced. But I have no doubt there will be plenty of side topics to comment on. But for now, to bed I go!
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Happy Birthday, MusicGuy!
Welcome to God(des)-Dom Panni!
Happy Academy Award Nomination Announcement Day!
Last night (just a few hours ago, actually), I saw "Carmen" at the Seattle Opera. It was quite good. I'd never seen it live, only the Julia Migenes/Placido Domingo video and when I was at college, it was the very first stage experience I'd ever had. A minute or so after the overture started, I realized something. I whispered to my friend, "I just realized that the orchestra is playing and there is no amplification at all!" When the singers started singing, it was so wonderful to hear (quite easily) all of their voices with absolutely no microphones anywhere! I can't remember the last time I heard vocal music (other than Tony Bennett's one song off mic) that wasn't electronically amplified. It was so refreshing to experience that after so many years the of overamplification that happens here in Olympia...even in smaller theaters.
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I thought that I missed them. Really don't care. But would like to see Johnny Depp receive a nomination and although he is a long shot I think Sean Astin should be acknowledge for his work too.
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Fascinating thoughts on writing in Hollywood late last night, scribes Pogue and Panni. There's a reason re-writers are so hot to get credit through arbitration... There's a reason studios think they can handle writers like replacable robots... There's a reason people stay in the Hollywood writing profession....
The answer to all these questions involves an S with a verticle line through it.
I may be fortunate enough to toil in a field where the writer is considered essential (love the Peter Hall quote), but I do it for roughly one-thousandth of what my Hollywood friends earn. It's a choice.
Whenever I see the slogan "choose life" I want to scratch out the "life" and make it "poverty" for that's my motto.
You know, I'm not quite coherent at this hour.
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At the Oscars, will Bob Hope be hosting (in white tie and tails)? And will Cary Grant and Audrey Hepburn and Jimmy Stewart and Kim Novak and David Niven and Joan Fontaine and George Chakiris be presenters? And will there be spectacular musical numbers writeen especially for the show featuring some of Hollywood's biggest stars? Will I be able to hum any one of the nominated songs (let alone still know any of them ten years from now)?
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It's 8:04am here in NYC. The Oscar nominations should be announced very soon but since they are not up yet I have nothing to talk about. Although even when they are announced I will have little to talk about since I rarely go to movies in a theatre. I know that I will have missed every single film nominated for anything this year (unless Finding Nemo gets a nod). I spent too much time in 2003 celebrating my 50th birthday, going to Key West on vacation and then taking our long-awaited Christmas vacation to London.
Happy Real Birthday to our own Wonderful Guy, Mr. Music Guy (aka Lyn).
For your London shot of the day (not many shots left) here is a picture of me at the Internet station in our apartment building sending you all good thoughts from London.
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Notice Henry the vacuum cleaner near my feet. Now I know the English have a reputation for being eccentric, but naming your vacuum???
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Happy Birthday MusicGuy.
Hmmmm, interesting. No Oscars noms for Cold Mountain (for Best Picture) or Nicole Kidman (or Tom Cruise for that matter).
The Best Picture noms I can remember are: Lord of the Rings, Lost in Translation, Seabiscuit, Mystic river.
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DR Emily: I want to take your survey. Why is the link not working? :(
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Here are the nominations:
http://www.oscar.com/nominees/nomineelist.html
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As I said in an earlier post, I have not seen a single film in any of the major nominations. I did see Finding Nemo which got nominated in Animated Feature, Sound and Original Screenplay.
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The other Best Picture film was Master and Commander. I was not surprised about the other noms. But I was about this one. I really thought Cold Mountain was going to be nominated.
I find it interesting that the winners at the Golden Globes were nominated (in acting categories). But most of the other nominations are different (naomi watts, samantha morton ...).
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HAPPY NATAL DAY, OH MIGHTY MUSIC GUY!
WELCOME TO NIRVANA, PANNI!
What about Alex North's score for 2001 being dumped in favor of an all-classical score? That seems to have come on the heels of TORN CURTAIN.
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Can we just take a look at those nominees for Best Actress and say, "What the f***?"
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Thanks to Jennifer I just saw the nominations. I have not seen any nominated best film or best performance, nor do any of them interest me. I am very happy that "Triplets of Bellville" was nominated for both Best Animated Film and Best Song (Soundtrack CD is supposed to be released today). Otherwise, I don't really care.
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Happy Real Birthday, MusicGuy, wherever you are!
To those DR's who were of the opinion that it was a good thing that my big meeting was postponed this morning, how right you were!
I spent one helluva night which culminated in my hallucinating that I couldn't go to the bathroom because there was a huge crowd already lined up to go in there. Once that was straightened out (I told the crowd to scram) I realized that I was parched and had to have water immediately - only I didn't have the strength to go to the fridge and get some. Suffice it to say, that I would be in no shape for a script meeting this morning.
As for the Oscar noms, I'm glad IN AMERICA did well. It's a fine film.
And even though I haven't as yet seen it - me culpa - I hear the THE BARBARIAN INVASIONS is a wonderful movie -- and it's Canadian. So it's nice to see it recognized in the Writing and Foreign Film categories.
I'll have more later.
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I just read the Best Song nominations. "A Kiss at the End of the Rainbow" from A MIGHTY WIND?? As I remember, that song is hilarious because it takes every song writing cliche and milks it big time. Do you think they've nominated it as a straight love song?
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I told BK in an email quite a while ago, that he should contact Annette O'Toole (and hubby Michael Keaton) because I felt - then and there- that their song "Kiss at the End of the Rainbow" would most definitely score an Oscar nom.
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Wow DR Panni, that sounds like you had a terrible night. Certainly not one fitting a goddess. Feel better.
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Panni, welcome to Goddesdom! I think you will feel much better now that you are sitting on a cloud! I do hope you feel better soon!
[move=left,scroll,6,transparent,100%]And a big ole HAPPY BIRTHDAY to DR Musicguy!!!!!!!![/move]
[move=left,scroll,6,transparent,100%] ;D :D ;) :) :o 8) :-* :D ;) :) ;) ;D :-* 8) :o [/move]
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I liked ALL of the songs in A MIGHTY WIND and wished more of them had been nominated.
Biggest shock for me was Scarlett Johanssen not scoring a nomination for either of her films this year: THE GIRL WITH THE PEARL EARRING or LOST IN TRANSLATION. Astounding.
Albert FInney was considered a shoo-in on merit, but he (like Russell Crowe) had announced previously he wouldn't attend the Oscars even if nominated, so I feel the actors probably thought, "Why bother nominating them?"
COLD MOUNTAIN's lack of a Best Picture nomination was kind of a shock, but given that its reviews have been all over the map, I guess I shouldn't have been surprised.
A couple of out-of-the-blue nominations like the 13 year old girl scoring a Best Actress nod for THE WHALE RIDER. I think that makes her the youngest Best Actress nominee ever. I know Tatum O'Neal and Jodie Foster were both younger when they got their first nominations, but they were in supporting categories.
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I told BK in an email quite a while ago, that he should contact Annette O'Toole (and hubby Michael Keaton) because I felt - then and there- that their song "Kiss at the End of the Rainbow" would most definitely score an Oscar nom.
DR td, I'm sure you mean her husband Michael McKean.
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DR Emily: I want to take your survey. Why is the link not working? :(
The reason the link isn't working is because the entire linguistics site is down.
Hopefully there is a McGill Linguistics version of a Mr. Mark Bakalor working on solving the site problems as I type this. :D
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ANother surprising thing about the nominations: neither of the two biggest nominations-getters (LORD OF THE RINGS or MASTER AND COMMANDER) scored a single acting nomination. Pictures bigger than the actors inside them? Still, I was a bit disappointed Sean Astin didn't get a nomination, and I was also pulling for Paul Bettany in MASTER AND COMMANDER.
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...Now I know the English have a reputation for being eccentric, but naming your vacuum???
How about the more personal battery operated appliances - I wonder if they have names stenciled upon them?
der Brucer (maybe Gollum isn't the only one with a "precious")..."evil...."
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[move=left,scroll,6,transparent,100%]WELCOME TO
GODDESS PANNI!![/move]
Another Happy Birthday to DR MG.
DRKerry - it is just that the first few shots of Miss Diane Lane reminded me of Miss Natalie Wood....amazingly so!
Hmmmmmmm.....nominations. I will have to study them some more. I enjoyed MASTER & COMMANDER, PIRATES OF THE CARRIBBEAN, and SEABISCUIT....
Johnny Depp and Charlize Theron would please me if they win.
I also saw just a FEW movies this year so I haven't seen a LOT of the nominees - only the promotions on TV....hmmmmmmmmmm.....
It will be interesting to see.
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Still, I was a bit disappointed Sean Astin didn't get a nomination
You, DR MS and me - makes three.
der Brucer (maybe we should have a HHW tally of those we wished "had been"s)
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Thanks for the good wishes, DRs Jennifer and MBarnum, and SWW (after I signed off last night).
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..there was a huge crowd already lined up to go in there. Once that was straightened out (I told the crowd to scram)
Only in a dream would that work!
der Brucer (noticing HHW Deities have great power even in dreams)
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Last night (just a few hours ago, actually), I saw "Carmen" at the Seattle Opera. It was quite good. I'd never seen it live, only the Julia Migenes/Placido Domingo video and when I was at college, it was the very first stage experience I'd ever had. A minute or so after the overture started, I realized something. I whispered to my friend, "I just realized that the orchestra is playing and there is no amplification at all!" When the singers started singing, it was so wonderful to hear (quite easily) all of their voices with absolutely no microphones anywhere! I can't remember the last time I heard vocal music (other than Tony Bennett's one song off mic) that wasn't electronically amplified. It was so refreshing to experience that after so many years the of overamplification that happens here in Olympia...even in smaller theaters.
Now you know what I'm kvetching about all the time!
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[move=left,scroll,6,transparent,100%]Happy Birthday, Dear Reader Music Guy, wherever you are!!![/move]
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I, too, haven't seen many of the films, in fact, I think I've seen three, maybe four. TWO songs from Cold Mountain? Who knew?
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[Cue loud Wagnerian music.]
Congratulations on your entrance to Valhalla, Dear Reader Panni.
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Without the benefit of screeners, a WGA card, DGA card, SAG card, or even an uncle in the business, the only nominated films I have not yet seen (other than in the documentary, short and foreign film categories, and I even saw some of those) are City of God and Brother Bear.
With its multiple nominations, I will now definitely try to see City of God before the awards are presented on February 29. Given Brother Bear's competition, I think I will probably skip it.
Regular denizens of this site know that I am a big proponent of intimate, character-driven cinema, and that I thought The Station Agent, which fits squarely into that category, was one of the lovliest films of 2003. So I am disappointed to see it was shut out. I thought Miss Patricia Clarkson and Mr. Peter Dinklage were both quite deserving of nominations, as was the screenplay. (At least Miss Clarkson was properly recognized for her work in Pieces of April.)
I am shocked, shocked, I tell you, that Monster was overlooked in the makeup category.
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Fox New's intro to their Oscar Story:
(http://www.foxnews.com/images/114530/3_4_gollum.jpg)
I Wantsss My Oscar!
Their inside story adds irony with this photo/caption:
(http://www.foxnews.com/images/114530/3_21_gollum.jpg)
Gollum and company led the Academy Awards race Tuesday with 11 nominations.
der Brucer
PS This site:Films (http://www.oscars.com/nominees/films.html) lets you click on a film and see a synopsis plus a list of all its nominations
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[Cue loud Wagnerian music.]
Congratulations on your entrance to Valhalla, Dear Reader Panni.
Shouldn't a Hungarian Goddess be welcomed by Liszt or Bartok?
der Brucer (always setting a stage)
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Thank you for the triumphant welcomes to Goddessville, DRs Jrand53 and Jay!
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DR Charles Pogue: I only saw your reply this morning and thanks for your very well-reasoned comments. However, the situation you describe as the only way you'll do a rewrite is exactly what happened to Mike: Disney completely trashed the original screenplay (which in fact was not even a finished script but a treatment) and asked Mike to start from scratch. Disney proposed to the WGA that the original screenwriter (who had no previous credits) get a story credit and that Mike get the screenplay credit, but the arbitration gave sole screenwriting credit to the first guy, even though everyone involved (including the original screenwriter) is on record as stating that not one word of the original treatment made it into Mike's final screenplay. Evidently this so outraged the producers and Disney that they did a special poster just for Mike with his name as sole screenplay credit. Unfortunately that does nothing for the residuals aspect. I just thought it was a very interesting situation (made the front page of the Oregonian here, which is quite unusual, to say the least).
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The other interesting tidbit about this brouhaha is that the first screenwriter stated in the article that the only reason he insisted on sole screenwriting credit in arbitration is that his agent told him that everything evens out--that he'll get credit when he doesn't deserve it, but that down the road he won't get credit for something he does deserve. Very strange.
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There's a reason people stay in the Hollywood writing profession....
The answer to all these questions involves an S with a verticle line through it.
I can't speak for my fellow-scribe Pogue (he's quite capable of doing that himself, as we all know) - but I have to respectfully disagree, DR Noel. First of all, most of the screenwriters in this town are living - in a good year - at the poverty level. The lucky few like Pogue and Panni who actually make a decent living at it are the tiny minority. I know I kvetch all the time - as does Pogue - there's a lot to kvetch about. But I love what I do. And I would bet a shiny new quarter that he does, too. I've had bad years, we all have - but I stuck with it. Among other things, I actually think that through my work I can make a small difference in the world. That's enormously gratifying. Now, I'm not saying there aren't people in it strictly for the buck - of course there are. But most of us aren't.
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The reason the link isn't working is because the entire linguistics site is down.
Hopefully there is a McGill Linguistics version of a Mr. Mark Bakalor working on solving the site problems as I type this. :D
Okay let us know when the site is back up.
I wonder what a Linguistics version of Mark Bakalor would look like :)
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Shouldn't a Hungarian Goddess be welcomed by Liszt or Bartok?
Or Lehar or Kodaly or Ligeti or Rozsa of Dohnany... to name a few. For such a tiny country, we make a lotta music.
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That IS an interesting - and heartbreaking situation, JMK. That's what I meant when I said yesterday that arbitrations can be arbitrary.
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Emily's school survey is back online:
I'm in the middle of doing it. I'm finding it's a lot easier if I cover the answers and say what I think before seeing the choices.
All you have to do is remember the following things:
1) Under the heading "NAME" do NOT put YOUR name. Instead put MINE (so that the prof knows which students completed the task of finding the required number of questionees). In case any of you don't know my full name is EMILY KULIN.
2) Try to remember instances of what you say in a certain situation and not just think of what you think sounds most familiar (because we hear others who might not share our "quirky" speech habits more than we do ourselves)
3) Please Private Message me if you fill out the form so that I know how many have been completed
http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/programs/linguistics/faculty/boberg/
(All you have to do is click on the above link and then that for "Vocabulary Survey" on the left hand side of the page)
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For such a tiny country, we make a lotta music.
With and without Sour Cream :D
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After being snubbed at the GGs, I was afraid 21 GRAMS would get overlooked by Oscar, but Naomi Watts managed to secure a nomination. Looks like THE STATION AGENT got the snub instead.
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Wow i loved that survey! Maybe later we can discuss some of our answers. I'll bet everyone here uses different terms.
I am so happy I decided to cover the multiple choice answers before looking at the responses. Because it's much harder when you see the choices. Because it's true, you hear so many other people use the words, yet it's not the words you would use yourself.
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More insight from the GGs:
(http://www.foxnews.com/images/114595/1_41_kidman_nicole_gg.jpg) (http://www.foxnews.com/images/114595/4_42_kidman_nicole_gg_behind.jpg) (http://www.foxnews.com/images/114595/4_43_kidman_nicole_gg_side.jpg)
Nicole a Fashion No-No at Golden Globes
Tuesday, January 27, 2004
(extracted from FOX (http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,109591,00.html))
1. HAIR COLOR. So much for being the world's most famous redhead. Kidman's apparently got a major love affair going on with her colorist -- who's turning a head-turning star into just another washed-out blonde.
2. HAIRSTYLE. She was trying for a '30s feel, but the wispy curly-whirlies turned her 'do into a don't.
3. HEADBAND. Yes, it was real gold. And yes, it was by the haute jeweler Boucheron. But there's a reason even Hillary Clinton was smart enough to give up on headbands altogether.
4. NETTING. Instead of looking sexy, the see-through V-neck looked like scraps from Tonya Harding's ice-skating costumes.
5. SIDE CLEAVAGE. That's something a woman always has to watch for - and Nicole's far too classy to spill out of the sides of her dress.
6. SHOES. Her bronze-colored peep-toe pumps were much too heavy for such a light dress - nor did the color match the frock's metallic discs. Paging Manolo.
7. PURSE. It was too boxy for the dress. She should have chosen a smaller, unstructured bag -- even feathered, perhaps.
8. MAKEUP. Her eyes were underdone, her lips too dark and her cheeks were to white. Pale girls need to overcompensate with the blush brush, not hold back.
9. COLOR SCHEME. The pale netting, the washed-out gold sequins and that straw-colored hair made it impossible to figure out where the dress ended and she began. Kidman always looks better in strong colors, like deep blue and yellow-green, which bring out her eyes.
der Brucer (above photo-essay posted for DR jd's delight)
Please Note:
(http://www.nypost.com/images/pagesix01272004.jpg)
Victoria Secret models are more tastleful than GG stars
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I've tried repeatedly to get to the site but I can't seem to get there. This link below is incomplete. As you can see, only part of it is blue and the truncation causes an error. I was able to get to the McGill site and into the Linguistics section but when I click on Boberg's name I get an error that I'm not authorized to view this page. Any suggestions?
www.arts.mcgill.ca/programs/li...faculty/boberg/
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Where in tarnation IS MusicGuy anyway?
Haven't seen the grams picture, but I think Naomi was given the nod to make up for last year when she should have WON for Mulhullond Drive.
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Bruce:
What happed to the unseemly trivia contest.
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Wow i loved that survey! Maybe later we can discuss some of our answers. I'll bet everyone here uses different terms.
Yes, and some of us have used different terms during different times of our lives. I was raised in a very blue collar Philadelphia neighborhood (heavily influenced by Pennsylvania Dutch) - then I married a girl who had the Stars and Bars posted on her dorm wall, and whose Father was a proud FFV (First Families of Virginia) - needless to say, our vernacular was not the same.
How many people do you know who "root through a dresser drawer" looking for a sock mate?
And age adds another factor; when I was young folks had "ice boxes" - you know, wooden cabinets, lined with sheet metal, into which the ice man placed the large block of ice he had tonged from his horse-drawn wagon.
And washers had wringers; and you used clothes-props to hold up the line.
We also had ash-men who came once a week to collect the coal ashes your poor Dad hauled up from the cellar (not basement).
And cream was something you got off of the top of a milk bottle.
And oleo-margarine was sold in large beige blocks with a yellow collared dot that you pressed to release a dye that you mixed with the goop to make it look like butter.
And ration points were red and blue tokens.
der Brucer (who still remembers the thrill of putting on clean Jockey shorts fresh off the line in January - boy, did that put my kickers in a twist - and, yes, I did wear knickers to school - every damn day!)
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Welcome, Dear Panni,
To Heaven (or Mt. Olympus)!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY,
MUSIC GUY!!!
**If any of our Haines / Kimlets have not had the pleasure of hearing Lyn play the organ you really should make a point to find one of his CDs. He is terrific. (Watching him play his organ is apparently reserved for Kerry)
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Damn them, damn them all to hell, I forgot the winners of the trivia contest. Coming within minutes. Stay tuned.
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Ben I'm sorry, try this link:
http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/programs/linguistics/faculty/boberg/
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Thanks, Jennifer. That link got me in :-)
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Okay, here is the trivia contest question, answer and winners:
This off-Broadway play was the only produced play by a notable Academy Award-winning thespian. In said play (really three one-acts), a young actor made a very early appearance. The young actor would go on to become one of the most respected and famous film actors of his generation. Name the off-Broadway play, the playwright and the actor.
One Night Stands of a Noisy Passenger
Shelley Winters
Robert DeNiro
Congratulations to our High Winners (I really didn't think anyone would get the answer): sgurey, Dan-in-Toronto, and Jrand. And, our Electronic Hat has randomly chosen our Highest Winner - Dan-in-Toronto. So, if Dan will e-mail me his handy-dandy address, I will get his and our last two winners' sparkling prizes posted tomorrow.
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I've tried repeatedly to get to the site but I can't seem to get there. This link below is incomplete. Any suggestions?
www.arts.mcgill.ca/programs/li...faculty/boberg/
Try this: Survey (http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/programs/linguistics/faculty/boberg/)
0r in English:
http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/programs/linguistics/faculty/boberg/
Ignore the ... if you highlight the link with the mouse you will see it correctly spelled out
der Linguistics-link-fixer-upper Brucer
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I'm sorry DR Ben: It was my fault. I just copied DR Emily's message. And didn't realize that it didn't copy the link properly. :(
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Oscars! What Can I Say?
I think one of the reasons we all look forward to the awards season is because we love to see how often (if any) each nominating group agrees with us; and we love to argue about the inclusions and ommissions: both good and bad.
Personally, I would have loved to have seen Ellen DeGeneres get a Best Supporting Actress nod for Mr. Wrong, I mean, Finding Nemo.
I am glad to see Sean Penn, as well as the very scary Johnny Depp, get nominated. I would have been very upset to see Mr. Penn win an Oscar, a year or so ago, for I Am Sam, but I would quite happy to see him win for Mystic River.
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Good morning! Good afternoon!
Combos and Frangos - The Breakfast/Brunch of Champions!
<burp>
Happy Birthday, DR Music Guy! I shall put on some of your CDs in honor of your natal anniversary.
Welcome to The Club, DR Panni! Does this mean you'll be making a bunch of Hungarian goodies for the weekly get-togethers now? ;-) *And Dohnanyi is one of my favorite composers! I've always loved his "Variations on Nursery Tune" (Twinkle-Twinkle or Ah, vous dirai-je, Maman or...) for piano and orchestra. And continuing in the Hungarian mode, Firkusny playing the Dvorak Piano Concerto... :-)
As for the Oscar noms... The only nominated movie I've seen has been Finding Nemo. -I'm hoping to catch In America either tonight or tomorrow. However, I have heard about all the nominated movies, and read about all of them, so... 'Nuff said. For now. But I was pleased to hear Johnny Depp's name read this morning. And I still got a "weird" reaction to Sean Penn's nomination - guess there's too much baggage (Mr. Madonna - ?!?!?) associated with him to really feel good about him/the nomination - and I don't think I'm alone in that mindset.
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It hasn't started snowing yet, but every tv and radio station and every internet website is giving totally different predictions as to how much there will be... which is why I don't trust any of them. When they range from 3 inches to 2 feet you have to figure that they are all just making wild guesses.
I took the Larry Moore interview with me to lunch. It's very interesting. I have one question... he claims he was working on the orchestrations for Encore's BOYS FROM SYRACUSE, but Encores has always promoted the fact that they used only the original orchestrations of their shows (and usually only credited the original orchestrator). So Larry's statement makes me wonder why Encores would claim this if it wasn't true.
The book on the MGM female stars gets stranger and stranger as it goes along. It claims that Mickey Rooney got Lana Turner pregnant while filming an Andy Hardy and it was one of her many abortions. The book has no list of source material, so I think it's more a bunch of rumors than facts. It claims that Clark Gable (who had affairs with almost all of his leading ladies) also slept with Billy Haines to get a job!
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Thank you for the welcomes to Mt. Olympus, DRs TCB and JoseSPiano! Right now I'm too sick to enjoy the clouds. Have been trying to work, but I'm shivering, my eyes are watering, I'm coughing like Camille and I'm going through enough Kleenex to clear a forest. Other than that I feel dandy.
Dan-in-Toronto - Congrats on winning the trivia quiz. Hope you enjoy the new Lexus. (Am I hallucinating again?)
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Something so bizarre about the linguistics survey.
I had a friend who I talk to everyday fill it out. He lives in Arkansas right now.
After hearing his answers, I can barely believe that we are able to communicate everyday. Almost every term was different. And some, I had never even heard of.
Very interesting.
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More and more snow here!
WEL I have read the Joan McCracken bio...The Girl Who Falls Down....very good book. It seems a bit removed from its subject of course since there are no real interviews with her...and some of what her friends have to say is not really worth reading.....but I enjoyed it. Captured the time well and McCracken's history certainly coincided with a Golden Age of Broadway. thanks for the recommendation!
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I'm going to wander out into the world now. Must go to the drug store to get some over-the-counter cough syrup before my gut bursts from all this hacking. Will also pick up some chicken soup at Art's. If that doesn't cure me, I'm a goner.
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When Larry says "working on" he means restoring them to their playable shape. They were the original orchestrations, but new parts had to be extracted for the concert.
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I would be interested to see if my sis took the survey, if we would have the same answers. Or if DRs Emily and Andrea (living in the same city) would have the same answers as me.
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Sad news, again. According to the telenews, Jack Parr has died.
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Jack Parr??? Not to be rude, but I thought he'd been dead for twenty years. He must have been in his nineties.
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I haven't really had a chance to "study" the Oscar noms, but as usual there's a lot of films I haven't seen. In fact, the only four I have seen are LOTR:ROTK, Finding Nemo, PotC:CotBP, and A Mighty Wind.
On the other hand, I can proudly say that I haven't seen even one film nominated for a Golden Raspberry Award (http://www.razzies.com/asp/directory/XcDirectory.asp).
The other trend we've had this year is the films with long titles. They completely run the Makeup nominations. Consider:
Thelordoftherings:thereturnoftheking
Masterandcommander:thefarsideoftheworld
Piratesofthecaribbean:thecurseoftheblackpearl
Let's just hope that whoever is assigned presentation of that catagory doesn't have athsma. :-\
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Late 80s.
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JMK, Mike does have the option of asking for an appeal on an arbitration...and given the other writer's comments (if in print), I would think that he could make a good case for one. While I think the system generally works, there are aberrations in everything. And if you get a couple of lazy arbiters who aren't going to take the job seriously and study the material meticulously, anything can happen. But, as I haven't read any of the material, I don't really have an opinion on the merits of either's claim. Except for the agent's remarks...what kind of crap is that? You're going to get screwed eventually, so screw somebody else when you can...Really!
Noel, like Panni, I take my work just as seriously as any playwright. I always say: "I love my work; I hate my job." My work is me and the empty page; my job is trying to perserve it from all the varied opinions that are going to try to eviscerate it. But I don't consider myself a screenwriter. I consider myself a dramatist. Actually, I just consider myself a writer. I've got play in me and novels as well as screenplays. I have dabbled in all three fields...with varying degrees of success...and hope to continue to dabble in all three fields...successfully...before I'm dead.
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WEL -- What is the name of that MGM book and the author's name? It sounds like an entertaining read, if not always a factual retelling of the MGM ladies. However, I have heard that Clark Gable / Billy Haines story several times over the years.
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Do you guys in the US really call an all-dressed pizza supreme? (I have never heard that term before).
It is also interesting how here we always say a child is in "grade one". Yet my American friends say "first grade".
Also are Canadians the only ones to call a kid's backpack a knapsack?
Okay DR Emily: apparently I am more obsessed with this survey than you are :)
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Panni, vindication is so sweet. I enjoyed your story last night. I hope you begin to feel better and sleep peacefully tonight.
Charles Pogue and Panni I was completely engrossed reading your comments on the screen writer’s world.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY MUSIC GUY!
Ben I got a kick out of Henry-thanks.
Jennifer thanks for the link. It may be late morning here but I still hadn’t seen the nominations.
I don’t have time to comment on the nominations and need to keep my posts short today. I have much to do before I leave Thursday for Bethesda and another MRI. For those of you who don’t know, I am participating in a four year study for women genetically predisposed to ovarian & breast cancer. I could use good vibes for nice weather, but then we all could, from Philadelphia to DC & Bethesda. Weather providing, a very close friend I haven’t seen in years will be driving from Ivyland, PA to join me in Bethesda.
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Do you guys in the US really call an all-dressed pizza supreme? (I have never heard that term before).
Wasn't "everything on it" one of the choices? I believe that was my response. Different restaurants have clever names like deluxe or supreme.
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DR TCB I think WEL mentioned the book a few days ago....The Golden Girls of MGM...I think!
The cover over Kritzer Time is stunning - I kid you not!
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DR td, I'm sure you mean her husband Michael McKean.
Thank you for reading my mind, and post, correctly!
The coffee pot must not have had enough java in it this a.m. ;)
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" My work is me and the empty page; my job is trying to perserve it from all the varied opinions that are going to try to eviscerate it.
If I weren't so damn ethical, I'd steal that! Very well put. I shall use it, but give credit where credit is due.
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Good weather vibes, Jane!
The woman who lives in the house next door is an ovarian cancer survivor. (A rare thing, unfortunately. That's why studies like the one you're in, Jane, are so valuable.) She does a huge annual star-studded benefit in LA every year.
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DR Emily, your inbox is full, but, I filled out the survey! ! !
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Happy Birthday DRMusicGuy. If you come in the other room, I'll give you your present.
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Oh, and I voted at Rondo.
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What Charles said. That is why writing my books was so much fun (well, not always fun, but always interesting and creatively satisfying - an amazing experience) and why, if I can write more, will continue to be fun. Because I write what I want and there are no opinions or executives to tell me about "acts" and "arcs" and "journeys" and all those other bullshit phrases which they don't even know the meaning of. I do it for me and when I'm happy, that's it. If people like them and respond to them, faboo. If not, tough beans. It doesn't mean I don't converse with the people who do the editing, or think about what's being suggested - it's simply that I make the choice, not them, I decide what feels right and doesn't. That's the way I deal with my friend Margaret - my muse. If she points something out, I look at it and invariably change it because she's always right. She never really suggests anything, just that something didn't feel right to her. The movie and TV business is filled with children who only know from screenwriting classes and recent movies. They only know what they've heard from others (all those silly catchphrases). And, sadly, they make the decisions and they give the green-lights, and that is why so much crap comes out year after year. Even the indie scene is like this now - it's nothing like it was in the sixties or seventies - it's all about landing other jobs or showing off, and if anyone thinks Miramax or Focus are INDIES, think again - they're just smaller versions of major studios. Could The Honeymoon Killers get made today? Nope, not in the way it was made then, which is why it's a good film. Could even Nudie Musical get made today? Nope, not in the way it was made then, and the way it was made then is why it has endured and why it originally caught everyone by surprise. Every indie today is slick and professional and perfect-looking, no matter what the cost (although the cost would surprise you in most cases).
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But where IS MusicGuy? Doesn't he want to even say hello, for heaven's sake?
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I, too, have heard the William Haines/Clark Gable story from more than one source, and I've also heard that about Mickey Rooney and Lana Turner. It sounds like this writer has simply compiled every rumor ever uttered about these MGM stars and had them printed. Fun reading, but who knows what's truth and what isn't?
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The all-star MGM wartime extravaganza THOUSANDS CHEER is airing right now on TCM. Very much a movie of its period, but the numbers are entertaining.
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Glad to see Johnny Depp get a nomination.
The film City of God received 4 nominations. I never heard of this film before. (directing, screenplay, editing, cinematography) It is from Brazil and was not even nominated for Foreign Language film
As usual one of the Best Picture nominee didn't get a director's nomination. I can;t remember when all five best picture films also had the directors nominated.
But some interesting things over at oscar Central
I'll point out a few:
City of God never made any of lists.
Lord of the Rings Cinematography and Sound Editing were supposed to be locks on nominations. But did not get them.
Keisha Castle-Hughes was "out of contention" for Best Actress.
Djmon Housou and Samantha Morton were "The Rest" not even a "dark horse"
The songs were interesting too.
The Triplettes of Belleville was "Out of Contention" and Scarlet Tide was not even listed and neither was A Kiss At the End of the Rainbow . (However the title song from a Mighty Wind was)
Samantha Morton
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Oh, an Ann Miller festival on TCM tonight starting at 8 p.m.: ON THE TOWN, KISS ME KATE, EASTER PARADE, and HIT THE DECK.
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DR Michael Shayne, CITY OF GOD was nominated for Foreign Film last year. It was released in LA this year and thus became eligible in the other categories. I know, screwy Academy rules.
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Good weather vibes, Jane!
The woman who lives in the house next door is an ovarian cancer survivor. (A rare thing, unfortunately. That's why studies like the one you're in, Jane, are so valuable.) She does a huge annual star-studded benefit in LA every year.
It warms my heart to hear of women like your neighbor. :)
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I'm sure some of you tire of my never-ending kid stories, but I have to tell one that just happened, in relation to the topic of Emily's survey. No dialect on earth can compare to the terminology thought up by a very young child. Riley, 5 years old, just requested a snack. He wanted milk and a "box cookie" I said "You mean one of the chocolate chip ones we baked yesterday?" "No, a BOX cookie!" Thoroughly baffled, I went into the kitchen to get the milk, figuring I'd get him to show me what in the world a box cookie was afterwards, and saw the box of Nilla wafers on the counter. And the light clicked on! "Oh, you mean one of these?" I asked him. "Yes! A box cookie!"
Child language...so logical, adults sometimes just can't understand it...
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Thanks BK for clearing that up regarding the orchestrations. It was a really interesting interview (as is the norm for this here site).
The full title is "The Golden Girls of MGM" by Jane Ellen Wayne published by Carroll & Graff. As I've said, I don't know how much to believe, but it's a lot of fun. It was obviously done on the cheap as there are many typos. Also Ms. Wayne must be English or Canadian based on a few spellings (favourite) and the date format used throughout 27 January, 2004.
No snow yet but constantly changing forecasts!
I'm sorry about Jack Paar. I would take Paar or Steve Allen over anyone that followed them (Carson, Leno, Letterman etc.). When Paar had "The Tonight Show" he appeared five nights a week for an hour-and-forty-five-minutes. Guests were picked on the basis of talent and how interesting they were. It was done from New York ten months a year with 2 monthly trips to California. Casrson moved the show to California with no trips back to New York; he cut it down to an hour and usually only did four new shows a week himself; but worst of all it was turned into a plugfest, with guests appearing when they had a new project to plug instead of because they were interesting guests. I will never forget a young comic who appeared on the Paar Tonight Show the first week it was on (and was brought back a second night due to popular demand). She sang "I Made A Fool Of Myself Over John Foster Dulles" and "Puppy Love". Her name was Carol Burnett. One night Paar had on a young woman who was introduced as Dujy Landgar. He had to guess who her mother was. The guest was Liza, years before she became a star. And Liza's mother made one of her best television appearances on Paar's prime time show after he had left latenight. Annie Miller, Bob Keeshan, Billy May and now Jack Paar. Not a very good way to start the year and it's only January.
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No snow yet but constantly changing forecasts!
Never believe weather predicitions. According to the radio I'm supposed to be under the rainclouds by now, and we're currently enjoying blue skies and sunshine...go figure...
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I hope to spend Saturday in DC. Any suggestions? My friend asked about the botanical gardens. Does anyone know if they are worth going to at this time of year. I understand there is a nice greenhouse section. She also asked about the wax museum but I didn’t find anything on it.
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Oh and Panni, thanks for the good weather vibes. Good vibes back to you. May you feel up to enjoying those clouds soon.
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Here in Minnesota, the weather is about to take another plunge into The Deep Freeze...I honestly don't mind all that much. I just put on another layer and get on with it. Hot weather, on the other hand, is the bane of my existence. Gimme minus ten anyday over 75 degrees...!
I've seen all five of the Best Picture nominees this year. Two of them I disliked. I'd like to say The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King is a lock for the statue, but Mystic River was pretentious and downbeat, so I'm betting it'll win instead. Besides, other than for technical awards, SF/fantasy/horror pictures may just as well not exist for most Academy voters.
I was really delighted to see The Triplets of Belleville get a Best Animated Feature award. It might actually get this over Finding Nemo. Last year's winner, Spirited Away was a dark horse, that deserved the award. Nemo is a fine, fine picture, but Triplets is far better...at least, IMHO (that's "in my humble opinion" in 'net lingo!).
Oh, and Happy "Real" Natal Anniversay, MusicGuy...!
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Oh, and I voted at Rondo.
http://rondoaward.com/ (http://rondoaward.com/)
I've voted, too. ;D
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Though I was young when he was at his zenith, I still enjoyed Jack Paar and appreciated that the conversation was sophisticated and something that I'd find more enlightening "when I grew up." Sorry he pretty much gave up on TV before I made it to maturity. But he could get GREAT conversation out of people like Hermione Gingold and Zsa Zsa Gabor.
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I hope to spend Saturday in DC.
She also asked about the wax museum but I didn’t find anything on it.
I think they call that Congress.
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Emily: I voted!
Rondo: I voted!
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Quote from: Jennifer on Today at 12:24:09pm
Do you guys in the US really call an all-dressed pizza supreme? (I have never heard that term before).
Wasn't "everything on it" one of the choices? I believe that was my response. Different restaurants have clever names like deluxe or supreme.
I have never heard it referred to as that either! :)
Good vibes to DR JANE ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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I've just finished perusing our next Unseemly Interview, with Alet Oury, and let me tell you it is frank and strong and funny and terrific. I think this will appeal to everyone here, young and old, about the dangers one can fall into as a young aspiring actor in NY, and about how one deals with rejection. Alet has overcome a lot and I think you will be bowled over by the interview.
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What a blustery day - the worst storm here in five years. We've lost hydro (that's Canadian for our electricity's gone off) five or six times.
Good vibes - weather vibes, health vibes - to everyone, especially to DR Jane as she heads east. And Panni, I'll let you know when the Lexus arrives.
As an editor of books, I've been enjoying today's discussions on writing. I've worked with one editor who has an inflated idea about how much she contributes to her authors' books (she doesn't), and with quieter types who recognize that their job - even when revisions are required - is a supporting one. I've also worked with authors who are embarrassingly thankful for a relatively minor edit; and with those who say zilch, even after you've restructured their work and caught umpteen errors.
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Bruce, CHOICE is the key word. I'm perfectly content with anyone saying whatever they want about my work...I'd just like the final say-so as to whether I think the note is good or bad, workable, adjustable, or whether the critique is valid, but their reason is wrong behind it (Many folk will think sometimes something is too long, that the trouble's in the second act, etc. when the actual fact may be that something is too short or the reason the second act doesn't quite work is because there is a set-up or some sort of elucidation missing in the first act). I'm the dramatist. I always say you don't pay me the big bucks just to write, but for my sense of dramaturgy. I once had a producer try to get me to tart up some bad note of a director's by saying: "You're a great writer, you can write anything." I replied: "No, I'm a great writer because I DON'T write anything."
I enjoyed the Hell out of Johnny Depp's performance in PIRATES and think he may be the best young actor working, but at the end of the day, his Jack Sparrow really is just a music hall turn...I suspect there are richer, denser performances eligible for an Academy bid.
I too can dimly remember the great days of Jack Paar (listening in my bed to the TV coming from downstairs) and the early days of Johnny Carson when the show was an hour and half five days a week and you had guests on because they interesting conversationalists, not because they had something to sell or hype.
I remember quirky folk like humourist Jack Douglas (Never Trust A Naked Bus Driver & My Brother Was An Only Child) and his Asian Wife, Reiko, they were like a Burns and Allen act. Sam Levenson, Sammy Cahn, etc.
Does anyone else remember the infamous Custer sketch that Johnny Carson did in his early days? It was a huge flop and laid the biggest egg. It became the standard for flops. He and Ed talked and joked about it for months afterwards. I'm surprised he never included it in any of his clip anniversary shows.
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Hmmmmmmmm.....stuck in the electronic HAT again....second week in a row.
I remember Jack Paar's Friday evening show - an hour...in color I think on NBC. Hermione Gingold and Genevieve and that was where I first saw Jonathan Winters. His theme song was "Everything's Coming Up Roses"...he opened with a monolog...and I remember when Judy Garland was on talking about the movies and she was very entertaining. The first time I ever really saw her be herself and not a character.
Interesting show...maybe they will end up on DVD sometime. And yes I enjoyed Jack Paar and Steve Allen more than any of the others, even though I never watched the Tonight show regularly...EVER.
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I'm sorry about Jack Paar. I would take Paar or Steve Allen over anyone that followed them (Carson, Leno, Letterman etc.). When Paar had "The Tonight Show" he appeared five nights a week for an hour-and-forty-five-minutes. Guests were picked on the basis of talent and how interesting they were. It was done from New York ten months a year with 2 monthly trips to California. Casrson moved the show to California with no trips back to New York; he cut it down to an hour and usually only did four new shows a week himself; but worst of all it was turned into a plugfest, with guests appearing when they had a new project to plug instead of because they were interesting guests. I will never forget a young comic who appeared on the Paar Tonight Show the first week it was on (and was brought back a second night due to popular demand). She sang "I Made A Fool Of Myself Over John Foster Dulles" and "Puppy Love". Her name was Carol Burnett. One night Paar had on a young woman who was introduced as Dujy Landgar. He had to guess who her mother was. The guest was Liza, years before she became a star. And Liza's mother made one of her best television appearances on Paar's prime time show after he had left latenight. Annie Miller, Bob Keeshan, Billy May and now Jack Paar. Not a very good way to start the year and it's only January.
In all fairness, WEL, Johnny Carson did the Tonight Show for almost thirty years. For a long time Carson kept the show in New York and took two trips to L.A. every year; and he worked five days a week. It was only after he had been doing the show for many years, and he had threatened to resign, that the show was moved to L.A. permanently and he cut back to four days a week (and began bringing on more and more guest hosts). Don't get me wrong, I loved Jack Parr. However, it is very easy to wax nostalgic about Jack Parr's Tonight Show, but just remember that Parr only did that show for five years before he got tired of it and left.
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[stream=256,256][move=left,scroll,6,transparent,100%]Happy Birthday DR MusicGuy[/move][/stream]
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Happy Birthday, Dear Reader MusicGuy!
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All these posts on the business of writing have been fascinating. BK appears to be the sort who writes what he wants and he doesn't care what anybody else thinks.
I'm exactly the opposite: I care only about what the audience thinks, and, what they tell me, I listen to.
Four years ago, Area 51 - The Musical http://hometown.aol.com/mprovizr/Index.html (http://hometown.aol.com/mprovizr/Index.html) went into rehearsal. There was a song in it that I was particularly proud of from a harmonic standpoint. I'd chose a bold set of chords for a fun-frightening song called Watch Your Back. Our able director, Gary Slavin, had said it was his favorite in the score, and Kathi Gilmore sang it beautifully.
After one performance in front of an audience, we removed the song from the score. Of course, the final decision was mine (this being the theatre), but it was clear from watching them watch the show, that every point the song had to make, the audience had already gotten before the music began. We never missed it: The show played much better without it.
But I sure wouldn't like to be ordered to make changes by some barely-out-of-college executive.
Not coincidentally...
Sunday, DW Joy and I saw three of the Best Picture nominees. And, while I'd agree these were good films, they're all far from great films. (I also saw Seabiscuit some time ago and I will not attend Lord o' Rings.) Reading the list makes me think it was an off year for cinema.
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Well, Noel, I was specifically talking about my novels. Those are for me. When I write a musical, of course I listen to everyone - anyone who has a good idea. I mean, I hope you weren't trying to imply otherwise, or I will have to bitch-slap you from here to eternity for being so blind. I mean, it was SO obvious what I was talking about, and here you turn it around into something wholly other. Shame on you.
Any writer in the theater is going to listen and learn, both from audiences, their director, the actors, a stagehand, whoever.
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I voted for the Rondos!
Does a winner actually get a bust of Rondo Hatton? That would be supreme, wouldn't it?
Earlier today, I had to pick up the cat from the vets. He's developed crystals in his urine! But this is treatable, with special (read: expensive!) cat food and regular trips to see Ms. Veteraniarian.
In case you're interested, here's his pitcher.
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Noel, maybe you mentioned this a different day, but what is your reason for not seeing LOTR; ROTK? I thought I was the only man left standing who had no desire to sit through the rest of the trilogy. I am not a great fan of science fiction, although I enjoy some of it, but I sat through Part I, because everyone told me I had to watch it, and I truly don't think I have ever been so bored in my life.
Honestly, I am glad that other people find the books to be so wonderful, and I am glad that the films live up to everyone's expectations, but please, please spare me the agony of sitting through any more of the Ring films.
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Robin cute picture. Good luck with the crystals problem. It isn’t always easy to correct as I know only too well. Four cats and every one of them had urinary problems.
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Well, Noel, I was specifically talking about my novels. Those are for me. When I write a musical, of course I listen to everyone - anyone who has a good idea. I mean, I hope you weren't trying to imply otherwise, or I will have to bitch-slap you from here to eternity for being so blind. I mean, it was SO obvious what I was talking about, and here you turn it around into something wholly other. Shame on you.
Any writer in the theater is going to listen and learn, both from audiences, their director, the actors, a stagehand, whoever.
What I'm writing about is the difference between writing for the theatre, writing a novel, and writing for Hollywood, BK. I can understand why you'd enjoy writing novels, as the novelist can be answerable to nobody. As DR Panni and Pogue have been telling us - the Hollywood writer can have his work savaged by a rewriter, and these rewriters are called in by studio execs who know nothing more than how to read box office receipts. And I love the Peter Hall quote from yesterday about how collaborators are in service of a playwright.
I was thinking, reading yesterday's posts, that the business of screenwriting sounds so awful, some DRs might wonder why anybody does it. Glad to see that answered.
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Noel, maybe you mentioned this a different day, but what is your reason for not seeing LOTR; ROTK? I thought I was the only man left standing who had no desire to sit through the rest of the trilogy. I am not a great fan of science fiction, although I enjoy some of it, but I sat through Part I, because everyone told me I had to watch it, and I truly don't think I have ever been so bored in my life.
Honestly, I am glad that other people find the books to be so wonderful, and I am glad that the films live up to everyone's expectations, but please, please spare me the agony of sitting through any more of the Ring films.
I prefer films in which characters I recognize as human behave in ways that I recognize as human. In every bit of sci-fi or fantasy, there's something I don't understand when I've entered the cinema: now, maybe that's the power of some ring, or a guy turning green when he gets angry. It's not human behavior, and I just don't have the patience to learn the "rules" of the fantasy.
What are rules? Stuff like: "If you're bitten by a vampire, you become a vampire too. A silver stake through your heart is the only thing that can kill you."
To me, this is nonsense, and I find I actually resent having to learn this stuff, just so I can understand one movie.
I sat through all of the first rings; then, when so many people were saying the third ring was so good, I thought I'd take a look at the second ring on DVD, but I could not keep my eyes open after one hour. So, I've devoted nearly four hours to trying to understand the rules of Middle Earth. And that's more than enough. I give up.
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DR Robin Anderson - cute photo!
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Here's another Peter Hall quote: "For forty years, I have observed a very simple rule: as the director I can say anything I like about the text, but it remains the playwright's perogative to make the final decision. In exchange, the playwright can make any comment about the production but the final decision rests with me."
If only film directors collaborated this eminently sensible way, I would be a very happy man.
When I am writing, the only audience I listen to me. It is the only audience I can listen to. I cannot anticipate what the audience will think, so I do not think about what the audience wants, only what I want. I write to please myself. I don't know how any writer can write any other way.
After all, I think that it is the job of the artist...not to give the audience what it wants, but to make the audience want what he gives.
The artist tells the audience, the audience doesn't tell the artist.
That's why I hate the studio preview screenings and their little cards they have audiences fill out. It's asking amateurs to do the work of professionals. I once heard the late Peter Stone speak (he wrote books for 1776, KEAN, Will Rogers, so many others) and I wrote down something he said:
"Together the audience is always right; individually they're always wrong." Very wise.
Yes, observing the audience during previews can be very valuable but the danger comes in trusting the audience's opinion. They may get restless in the second act, but it may be because of something you did or didn't do in the first act. They may not like a character, but don't trust what they tell you about why.
That is the job of the professional. To read the audience, gauge their reaction, and figure out what specifically is wrong. An audience may know something's wrong, but they rarely know why.
I have no use for audience participation in the theatre.
I also spurn writer's groups. I find when you invite someone to critique your work, that means to most people to find the faults. They'll look for negatives, rather than positives. What is particularly amusing is all these groups of aspiring writers who get together to critique each other. Amateurs who haven't broken in yet, critiquing other amateurs.
I prefer to trust my own instincts. I firmly believe a professional knows when he's done good work. That's what being a professional is all about. That doesn't mean the work is perfect or can't be changed or tweaked or improved, but it means he understands what he's written, why he's written it the way it is, he's covered all his bases and can defend it passionately.
I think the goal of the artist is to say here is something I'm passionate about, that I think has meaning, that will resonate with others...and he exposes it to an audience to see if he's right. It's at that point the audience responds. And the artist either succeeds or fails.
But if he starts to tailor or re-fashion something he is passionate about to serve the whims and desires of the audience, he is not serving his voice or his art. He should only alter his work to make his voice clearer to the audience...but not even then if he feels it compromises and does not serve the work.
Audiences will change, but art remains art. There have been many failed or neglected pieces of art that were later re-assessed with new eyes. Van Gogh only sold one painting during his life time.
Author Dennis Brown in a lovely book called SHOPTALK, about various practitioners of the theatre, mentions a visit to Harold Clurman to discuss William Inge.
"As I prepared to leave Harold Clurman's apartment, he insisted on giving me a book...MR. GEORGE JEAN NATHAN PRESENTS, a collection of theatre essays by the eminent drama critic, published and purchased in 1917. That evening, I perused my gift and discovered that Clurman had underlined only one sentence in the entire volume:
"The artist is contemptuous of the crowd."
I keep that Nathan quote close to my heart just like the Peter Hall quotes.
A writer must never be a slave to the audience. He must write for himself.
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By the by, re: Panni and Noel's discussion about renumeration in the theatre as opposed to film.
Here's how I survived both. Whether I was making $75 dollars doing summer theatre or getting six figures to write screenplays, I've always lived like I make half the money I do.
I get so fed up with these whingers in the WGA who every time a possible strike is mentioned, screamed: "We can't strike. How will I pay my rent, how will I put my kid through school?"
I always groan and say: "Well, gee, you're in the Arts, you should've figured all that out a long time ago, before you started having kids and maxing out your credit cards. You could be out of work for six months and it have nothing to do with a strike but just mercurial caprices of the business. How would you pay your rent and put your kids through school then? I expect you'd go out and get a real job. If you're out of work because of a strike at least your Guild is trying to improve your working conditions. So get real and try and sacrifice a little for the common good."
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Noel to answer your comment that screenwriting sounds so awful you wonder why anyone does it... Because every once in a while, they get it right and it works. So, from job to job, we always live in hope. we're writers...the only people who can be idealists and cynics at the same time.
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I agree with most of the above. It's why I hate these Internet theater boards so much. Those people really think that they have all the answers from seeing something in previews once. I loathe them. And the fact that theater professionals actually send people on there to read that stuff is so indicative of the way all aspects of the business are today.
And that's why writing the books was the most fulfilling thing I've done, writing-wise. I was the last word, I wrote what I wanted, in the way I wanted to and I, again, didn't care if people liked it or not. I wanted them to like it, but if they hadn't, it wouldn't have mattered to me because I was pleased. I didn't follow certain rules in writing them the way I want, and I don't have "acts" and "arcs" (maybe I do but I didn't think about that crap when writing) - I just did it the way it felt right to me and that was that.
With my screenplays, I've been lucky - I didn't have to change much of anything with either Nudie or Creature Wasn't Nice. I do remember the producer of Nudie doing a polish on my script, and I systematically removed every single change he made and told him he couldn't make the movie unless we made the script. That doesn't mean that once I got scenes on their feet that the actors and I didn't improve them - we did. We found things in rehearsal that I never would have thought of. We worked together but it was the movie I wanted to make.
On the second film, it was taken away for all the reasons Pogue states - idiots filling out preview cards. It was totally recut to reflect the "Airplane" mentality that was the flavor of that year. It wasn't designed to be that and they ruined the film. And, of course, twenty-two years later, what they did looks absolutely dated and inane, whereas I've shown my cut of the film to people and it holds up well because it doesn't pander to the "style" of the day.
With the musicals I've written - yes, I can hear when the audience is restless, I can hear when a song isn't landing in the way I'd hoped - but I'm smart enough to tell when it might be the performance of the direction's fault rather than the material, and I'm also smart enough to know when I can do better.
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Noel, I don't know why learning the rules or magic of the world you've entered is any different in learning the specifics of the world of, say, Master and Commander or Stephen Sondheim's Sweeny Todd.
Plays and movies are always spewing information, backstory, exposition, character background, foreshadowing that the audience must follow and maintain some grasp of in order to understand and enjoy the drama.
One does expect the audience to minimally pay attention and listen. It's how drama unfolds; we learn things we previously did not know. There isn't much point in having everything just wash over a lazy audience in lowest-common denominator fashion. They should be expected to work a little for it.
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Evening all! Hope you had a nice day!
I prefer films in which characters I recognize as human behave in ways that I recognize as human. In every bit of sci-fi or fantasy, there's something I don't understand when I've entered the cinema: now, maybe that's the power of some ring, or a guy turning green when he gets angry. It's not human behavior, and I just don't have the patience to learn the "rules" of the fantasy.
What are rules? Stuff like: "If you're bitten by a vampire, you become a vampire too. A silver stake through your heart is the only thing that can kill you."
To me, this is nonsense, and I find I actually resent having to learn this stuff, just so I can understand one movie.
I sat through all of the first rings; then, when so many people were saying the third ring was so good, I thought I'd take a look at the second ring on DVD, but I could not keep my eyes open after one hour. So, I've devoted nearly four hours to trying to understand the rules of Middle Earth. And that's more than enough. I give up.
Errr, Noel, you don't ALWAYS turn into a vampire if your bitten. You can just die. You have to drink of the blood of a vampire to be turned. And it's wooden stake. Hawthorn, if possible. You then stuff the mouth with garlic and cut off the head, if you want the vampire to be really, truely dead for all time and even THAT won't work if there's a sequel. :D The vampire heart can grow back, after a time.
Werewolfs are the ones who fear silver be it a bullet or a silver's wolf head cane, like Barnabas Collins (a vampire himself) carried. You have to remember the old poem:
Even a man who is pure in heart
and says his prayers by night.
May become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms
And the moon is full and bright.
I don't know how I know all this stuff, I just do.
Didn't we say "Happy Birthday" to Music Guy yesterday? Did I mess up again? I'm sorry. I'll get it right someday.
[move=left,scroll,6,transparent,100%] Happy Birthday, Music Guy!!![/move]
Congrats to the newest Goddess! All hail, Panni! Ye Gods!
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I am enjoying this discussion, by the way (BTW, in Internet lingo).
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BK, I've never written to acts or all those Syd Field rules either. But when I'm finished with it, I can tell you where the acts are and probably teach a basic screenwriting course, using that script alone.
You find so many young writers hung up on format or guidelines for amateurs that they think are commandments come down from Mount. "Oh, oh, what am I going to do? My first act doesn't end on page 32 like Syd Field said it should. Oh, Oh, I have too many pages. Oh, Oh, should I bind my script with three brads or two (always three is my answer)?" We should just kill all these screenwriting gurus, most of whom have never had a successful screenwriting career.
"There too many notes."
"There are as many notes as necessary."
-- a half-assed remembered quote from AMADEUS
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Errr, Noel, you don't ALWAYS turn into a vampire if your bitten. You can just die. You have to drink of the blood of a vampire to be turned. And it's wooden stake. Hawthorn, if possible. You then stuff the mouth with garlic and cut off the head, if you want the vampire to be really, truely dead for all time and even THAT won't work if there's a sequel. :D The vampire heart can grow back, after a time.
Werewolfs are the ones who fear silver be it a bullet or a silver's wolf head cane,
Thank you, Danise, for a great illustration of the sort of "rules" I can't be bothered to keep in my head, even for the length of a movie.
Sweeney Todd? Nothng super-natural there. I didn't have to learn anything new about how the characters behave to enjoy that.
Master and Commander is very fresh in my mind. I certainly enjoyed learning what I learned about the naval battles of 200 years ago, and hope I can apply this knowledge to some other sea tale someday.
But all that Tolkien palaver - the powers of a wizard, the diet of a hobbit, the language of the elves - what am I going to use all this information for? The enjoyment of one trilogy. It's too much to ask. I pass.
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BK, I'm enjoying the discussion too.
I also enjoy that you unashamedly say you write to please yourself. As it should be. You're saying to your readers: "This has meaning for me, does it have meaning for you?" And those it does have meaning for...? They are your audience! You cannot write for an unknown audience. You have to deliver the work and it will find its audience. That's where so much work goes awry...they're trying to acquire an audience than the work doesn't speak to.
Just because SAND OF HOUSE & FOG doesn't get as big an audience as LORD OF THE RINGS doesn't make it any less successfully in artistic terms. There is an audience it speaks to.
Everything cannot be a blockbuster, nor is it meant to be a blockbuster. Unfortunately, the blockbuster mentality is making it hard for smaller pieces of work to exist.
The great thing about the old studios was they balanced their slate. Different pictures for different tastes, different people. Now everything has to open with a 20 million dollar weekend.
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Well, obviously I was sleeping through some really interesting conversation. I also have SHOPTALK and many other books in which writers, directors, actors talk about their craft. That - and actually seeing the stuff on the screen, good and bad - is really the only way to learn anything about screenwriting. These SCREENWRITING FOR IDIOTS type of books drive me crazy.
Two things I want to comment on. First, and I know this is sacrilege - but sometimes I don't mind the notes (I just wish I didn't have to listen to all of them. And actually, I don't. Because the Big Secret is that they give out so many notes on so many scripts that they forget half of what they tell you.). Now why I don't mind the notes is the "pearl effect." You know, a pearl is created by friction - a parasite (perfect!) or a bit of something foreign invades the inner lining of the shell and a protective substance is produced around it - which eventually becomes a beautiful pearl. So, in writing terms, if they bug me enough - I might actually produce something which makes it better. Usually not specifically by following their notes - but simply by reexamining the whole thing.
The second thing I want to comment on, DS (Dear Scribe) Pogue, is your contention that writers should know better than to spend all their money. Well, yes, ideally, I'm there. But shit happens. Lawsuits, deadbeat ex-husbands, children to put through school, etc. My number one aim would be to spend half of what I make. And I think within the next few years that may happen. But I don't want to be thought of as some flighty spendthrift for not having done that so far.
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Well, DR Noel. I don't know what to say. I was raised with that stuff so it's like 2nd nature to me. I find the everyday movie to hum drum to be bothered with. Give me a dragon, a unicorn, a vampire any day of the week.
Bruce, you didn't say anything about what I said about the books. You didn't like what I said?
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Let me make clear that if I had my choice, I would only get notes from people who actually know what they're talking about. We know how often that happens! But as we get notes whether we like them or not, The Pearl Effect is my way of dealing with them.
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Where's Panni for all of this?
In essence, we're agreeing about all sorts of things...
Listening to the audience, as it's done in theatre, definitely involves having a keen eye for exactly how they're reacting as a group, rather than what they say on survey cards, or what the numbers on the survey cards add up to. (And there's no proof those Internet critics have actually attended the show.) While, to my great regret, I missed a production in Great Britain this past summer, I always try to attend performances of my shows. It is only by sitting with the audience that I can learn from them.
I'm glad Van Gogh existed, and there are, clearly, artists who listen to no one but themselves and sell no paintings and are acknowledged long after their deaths as brilliant. That's not for me.
I don't even think of myself as an artist. The word I prefer is "entertainer." And if I haven't entertained my audience, I've failed. I'm not doing this to please myself. And I wouldn't give an ear to live the life of Van Gogh. Doesn't sound like fun to me.
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"My number one aim would be to spend half of what I make. And I think within the next few years that may happen. But I don't want to be thought of as some flighty spendthrift for not having done that so far."
And let me clarify this as well - there was a time when I was living this way - but then - as I said - shit happened.
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Where's Panni for all of this?
Oops! There she is!
(welcome)
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Oops! There she is!
(welcome)
Thanks. I was sleeping. Amateur doctor's orders.
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In every bit of sci-fi or fantasy, there's something I don't understand when I've entered the cinema: now, maybe that's the power of some ring, or a guy turning green when he gets angry. It's not human behavior, and I just don't have the patience to learn the "rules" of the fantasy.
What are rules? Stuff like: "If you're bitten by a vampire, you become a vampire too. A silver stake through your heart is the only thing that can kill you."
Most of the rules you noted were learned by most of us growing up (age 9-14). Again. for many of us, Fantasy was a wonderful part of growing up - we were read to from the Red, Blue, Green and Yellow Fairy Tale Books; we dreamed of frolicking in Camelot; we couldn't wait 'till the next Horror film hit the neighborhood theatre.
Follow on generations had TV shows like Outer Limits and SciFI Theatre to keep the fantasy muscle's in tone (not to mention endless late night re-runs of Dracula meets whomever.
It's re-visiting these wonderful worlds of youth that make films like "Dragonheart" so delightful.
I feel so sorry for folks who cannot enter a theatre and leave the real world behind. We just returned from seeing "Big Fish" - a thoroughly enchanting film! Like most Burton films, it plays by no rules - one must see it as "Fable", or Fairy Tale, or surrealistic fantasy.
der Brucer (happily still in touch with his inner-child)
If I wanted an experience in which characters I recognize as human behave in ways that I recognize as human, I wouldn't go to a film, I'd ride the subway - ultimately authentic and a bit more inexpensive.
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And that's why writing the books was the most fulfilling thing I've done, writing-wise. I was the last word, I wrote what I wanted, in the way I wanted to and I, again, didn't care if people liked it or not. I wanted them to like it, but if they hadn't, it wouldn't have mattered to me because I was pleased.
Oh, I saw you in action at your book readings/signings - you weren't just "pleased" when people liked your stuff, you positively glowed! Surely you enjoy it when people are pleased by what pleases you.
der Brucer
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Most of the rules you noted were learned by most of us growing up (age 9-14). Again. for many of us, Fantasy was a wonderful part of growing up - we were read to from the Red, Blue, Green and Yellow Fairy Tale Books; we dreamed of frolicking in Camelot; we couldn't wait 'till the next Horror film hit the neighborhood theatre.
Follow on generations had TV shows like Outer Limits and SciFI Theatre to keep the fantasy muscle's in tone (not to mention endless late night re-runs of Dracula meets whomever.
It's re-visiting these wonderful worlds of youth that make films like "Dragonheart" so delightful.
I feel so sorry for folks who cannot enter a theatre and leave the real world behind. We just returned from seeing "Big Fish" - a thoroughly enchanting film! Like most Burton films, it plays by no rules - one must see it as "Fable", or Fairy Tale, or surrealistic fantasy.
der Brucer (happily still in touch with his inner-child)
If I wanted an experience in which characters I recognize as human behave in ways that I recognize as human, I wouldn't go to a film, I'd ride the subway - ultimately authentic and a bit more inexpensive.
Wow! I still have my Red, Yellow, Blue fairytale books. I love them. If you look below the stories, there are lessons to be learned. Do you, by any chance, know the salt story, DERBRUCER? The 3rd princess who tells her father "I look on you as I look upon the salt in my food?" and he gets mad and kicks her out? I LOVE that story.
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Noel, maybe you mentioned this a different day, but what is your reason for not seeing LOTR; ROTK? I thought I was the only man left standing who had no desire to sit through the rest of the trilogy. I am not a great fan of science fiction, although I enjoy some of it, but I sat through Part I, because everyone told me I had to watch it, and I truly don't think I have ever been so bored in my life.
Actually, I haven't seen any of the 3 LOTR films. Nor any of the Star Wars films (not a single scene of the newer ones, and never seen any of the original trilogy in total). I also think I may have been the only person (other than DearReaderLaura, of course :)) who never saw Titanic in '97-'98. Just seems that many of the box-office blockbusters simply don't interest me, and if I'm not interested in seeing a movie, I don't really see any reason to watch it ("movie literacy" be damned, I wanna enjoy my two hours).
As for this year's nominees, I've only seen 4 movies that are up for anything: Mystic River, A Mighty Wind, Pirates of the Caribbean, and Finding Nemo. A few others I will surely catch on DVD sooner or later.
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I prefer films in which characters I recognize as human behave in ways that I recognize as human. In every bit of sci-fi or fantasy, there's something I don't understand when I've entered the cinema: now, maybe that's the power of some ring, or a guy turning green when he gets angry. It's not human behavior, and I just don't have the patience to learn the "rules" of the fantasy.
Thank you, DR Noel, for putting into words what I've tried to explain to people for years. I've never been able to get into fantasy or sci-fi, a fact that confounds many of my friends. I think it is largely the "rules"... I just can't be bothered.
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BK - I think we should all be petitioning for a director's cut DVD of The Creature Wasn't Nice.
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New film coming out:
Town Without Gene Pitney.
His songs are banned from the airwaves of the local radio station until the adults take action!!
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New film coming out:
Town Without Gene Pitney.
His songs are banned from the airwaves of the local radio station until the adults take action!!
Michael Shayne, you are too funny!
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Regarding LORD OF THE RINGS (and mostly all forms of film) IF you can understand THE GOAL, and what the characters will do to ACHIEVE the GOAL, that' entertainment.
If the characters' GOAL is not the primary source of the plot, then something is definitely wrong.
I certainly don't know Ancient Greek culture, but, I can appreciate a good MEDEA or OEDIPUS REX, or even Disney's HERCULES.
Knowing that Lewis Carroll's life bordered on pedophilia doesn't make ALICE IN WONDERLAND any less ENTERTAINING.
Lord knows, I've tried to read Tolkien over the years, I find him dense and wordy; but, Peter Jackson created characters whose plight I became involved in on an emotional level; I bought into their goal and was rewarded with three films unlike any other that I had ever seen. What mythology was needed to comprehend that a ring forged by a powerful force must be destroyed, and that the only way that ring may be destroyed is to throw it into the flames of Mordor.
I don't think it's completely necessary to know ALL that has been written about Tolkien's writing, the ANALyses which could fill a library.
Unless you find a character, or characteristic, which you personally can identify - and Tolkien's world is filled with HUMAN CHARACTERISTICS - then there's really no point to the story-telling.
Of course all of my above ramblings could be applied to MOULIN ROUGE - do you have to know the mythology of courtesans to appreciate the CHARACTER of Satine? (Don't get me wrong, I don't think that Nicole Kidman brings anything to the table with her portrayal, and I have a love/hate relationship with the film itself). Knowing the mythology of courtesans brings up GIGI, which becomes quite unseemly when thoughts of courtesanary arises around a fourteen year old girl.
Personally, I find that the movies I like most, present easily understood GOALS and CONFLICTS and OBSTACLES, thematic devices which a recognizable as human - whether they be faults, flaws or positive attributes.
I'm also entranced by today's lively discussion; it has me besotted.
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Noel, I think the only reason to do almost anything, certainly as a choice of vocation, is to please yourself.
Panni, I definitely believe in the Pearl Effect...have had notes that irritate me or I was resistant to that eventually produced something better. But again, people have to articulate and help the veil to lift and shake you into a new way of thinking about something with some sort of passionate clarity and collaboration, not demanding or insisting without reason. I love sitting with a director or a producer who will go through a script with you page by page, line by line, word by word, if necessary, and wallow in the details with me. I love the creative debate, just not creative imperiousness.
And yes, smart notes can be a joy. Notes from smart folk, not dumb folk.
Panni, Did I say spend half my money? I meant to say I try to live like I only MAKE half of what I make. Then when shit and the emergencies happen, I've usually got something in the nest-egg to handle it. It's the Scotch and the Dutch in me, I'm always thinking that it all could end tomorrow, so I sack it away for worse case scenarios. I still have had plenty to enjoy my life. There's really not all that much difference between business class and first class.
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It's the Scotch and the Dutch in me, I'm always thinking that it all could end tomorrow, so I sack it away for worse case scenarios.
Well there's the difference, you see. The Hungarian in me KNOWS it will all end tomorrow, so why bother saving!
(That's not really true - but I couldn't resist.)
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TD, nicely put. I think all good drama, be it slice of life or fantasy, resonates with recognizable human truths and life lessons.
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TD, nicely put. I think all good drama, be it slice of life or fantasy, resonates with recognizable human truths and life lessons.
thanks, mr. pogue!
it's the actor in me - -the Robert Lewis Method: know your goal, know how you're gonna get it. . .then shoot for the moon!
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Danise I knew you would answer Noel’s question. :D Your post was so great I had to read it out loud to Keith. He would like to know if there are female counterparts to Werewolves. He assumes, based on his viewing experience, the human canine corps is only male. If female She-wolves do exist, can they have cubs?
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Danise - I may have missed the post about the books. What did you say or where can I find the post? Sometimes my eye just misses stuff, and sometimes pressing the "new" button at the wrong time takes me past stuff.
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Can this person who writes neither literature nor for the stage, nor for film chime in? Neither do I write music nor paint nor sculpt. I do happen to be a reader/audience member/viewer who is more than happy to "work" at "getting" whatever piece of art, be it a performing, visual or aural art, I find in front of me.
If the arts only presented people I can identify with or "rules" that I already know, the arts would be a mighty dull source of diversion for me. What of the notion of metaphor? Or, even more challengingly, parable?
Tolkien's Lord of the Rings series, much like Wagner's Ring of the Nibelungen, much like the mythology of ancient cultures, much like what is contained in Shakespeare, Williams and Kushner, contains lessons for us today. Even in the case of works presenting far-fetched mythology/parable/science fiction/human tragedy/human comedy/etc./etc./etc., the presentation of the story itself is an art, be it in the words that are spoken, the setting in which the art is delivered, the music that conveys the emotion, the skill of the actors/musicians/directors/etc.
I would hardly dismiss a vampire story, or a Hobbit story out of hand simply because I don't know the "rules" of vampirism or Hobbitry. The telling of the story is what is of interest to me. And sometimes the telling works, and sometimes it does not.
Are you saying, Dear Reader Noel, that because I do not a priori understand the "rules" involving angels crashing through a ceiling that Angels in America, be it in its stage or HBO versions, is an unworthwhile piece of art?
I don't think so.
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Noel said "I prefer films in which characters I recognize as humans behave in ways that I recognize as human."
How often do couples walk down a street and then break into songs that scan and rhyme perfectly and dance to music that suddenly fills the air?
If you can accept the fantasy conventions...the rules and magic...of a musical, of a 19th century barber singing as he slashes someone's throat, why not a magic ring or an elf?
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Actually, I haven't seen any of the 3 LOTR films. Nor any of the Star Wars films (not a single scene of the newer ones, and never seen any of the original trilogy in total). I also think I may have been the only person (other than DearReaderLaura, of course :)) who never saw Titanic in '97-'98. Just seems that many of the box-office blockbusters simply don't interest me, and if I'm not interested in seeing a movie, I don't really see any reason to watch it ("movie literacy" be damned, I wanna enjoy my two hours).
As for this year's nominees, I've only seen 4 movies that are up for anything: Mystic River, A Mighty Wind, Pirates of the Caribbean, and Finding Nemo. A few others I will surely catch on DVD sooner or later.
Thank you Jed. I am so tired of people telling me that there is something wrong with me because I don't want to devote 12+ hours of my life watching the extended versions of the complete LOTR. Or that I am not being fair to the Star Wars Saga, because the first one bored the Hell of me, and nothing I have seen or heard about the other five films has convinced me that I would like the sequels or the prequels any better.
I don't believe that liking or disliking either of these series of movies has anything to do with losing touch with my inner child. I am quite sure that for every one of the people who consider LOTR (to borrow Charles' phrase) to be the second coming of Christ, I could pick a film that I consider one of my favorites that they would either not be interested in seeing, or that they wouldn't enjoy if they saw it.
Believe it or not, there are actually some gay people who don't like Broadway musicals. I know, I know, I have never actually met any such people, but I have reason to believe that this is true. Still, I don't think there is something wrong with these people, becuase they have no desire to sit through Singing in the Rain. Rather there would seem to be something wrong with me for trying to find fault with these people because we have different tastes.
That's what makes a horse race, folks!
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Jay, I want YOU in MY audience!
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Danise I knew you would answer Noel’s question. :D Your post was so great I had to read it out loud to Keith. He would like to know if there are female counterparts to Werewolves. He assumes, based on his viewing experience, the human canine corps is only male. If female She-wolves do exist, can they have cubs?
BTW (By the way in internet lingo), Jane, nope, no female werewolves. All gay. 100% Another myth bites the dust (or would this be a fairy tale?).
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Jay, I want YOU in MY audience!
Gladly, Dear Reader Charles Pogue, gladly.
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TCB, I have two gay friends who were delighted to see that a fantasy film finally had a gay couple in it...the two hobbits, Merry and Pippin. Personally, I'm not too sure about Sam and Frodo. I think Sam's wife at the end was just a beard.
And confidentally, between you and me...the STARS WARS movies are vastly over-rated. In fact, the last two are utterly negligible. But Star Wars isn't anywhere the "greatest movie of all time" as Time Magazine hailed it at the time. It's just sort of a slicker Buck Rogers/Flash Gordon.
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Oh, also, Jed, just so you don't lose any sleep: Liking musicals won't turn you gay.
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Oh, also, Jed, just so you don't lose any sleep: Liking musicals won't turn you gay.
They do, however, make you very, very happy.
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Are you saying, Dear Reader Noel, that because I do not a priori understand the "rules" involving angels crashing through a ceiling that Angels in America, be it in its stage or HBO versions, is an unworthwhile piece of art?
I don't think so.
Maybe I wasn't clear earlier, but what bothers me about sci-fi and fantasy is sitting through the explanation of the "rules." The scene where Gandalf says to Frodo: "You must take this here ring to Mow-Lawn and chuck it in the garbage disposal, but beware the slithy toves, for they have powers of spoon-bending, and the dust-bunnies, who attack your elbows without warning. And don't put on the ring, for its power corrupts. And be careful not to eat Elevensies, because the sage Atkinescope has advised against it. And black knights can jump over other pieces and you can always pierce H.R.Puffinstuff in his soft underbelly."
My eyes roll over and the above is exactly what it sounds like to me. Nonsense.
Kushner called his play "A Gay Fantasia on American Themes" and, although angels and ghosts appear, you won't find any "explanation of the rules" in it. So that didn't bother me.
It's true I find a ride on the subway entertaining. But a number of films depict human behavior without this supernatural fooferaw, and I was glad I saw Mystic River, A Mighty Wind, Seabiscuit and others this year.
Now, people breaking out in to song never required any explanation. And, it happens to happen in my life. When I first fell in love, I sat in a crowded cafeteria with friends and sang Rodgers & Hart's "Wait Til You See Her" for all to hear.
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Charles, you mean West Side Story wasn't a documentary?
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DR Matth, thanks for letting us know about the Ann Miller movies tonight! Just finished watching ON THE TOWN! What fun! I caught part of it the other week, but tonight I was able to sit and enjoy the whole thing..and what beautiful costumes for the women! That is what always caught my eye as a kid when I would watch musicals...the color! As an adult, Gene Kelly catches my eye! ::)
Next up EASTER PARADE, and later HIT THE DECK!
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TCB, I have two gay friends who were delighted to see that a fantasy film finally had a gay couple in it...the two hobbits, Merry and Pippin. Personally, I'm not too sure about Sam and Frodo. I think Sam's wife at the end was just a beard.
Well, if you go back to the early Shire scenes in LOTR:TFOTF (which easily gets abbreviated to "Fellowship" if you like speaking English), it's fairly clear that Sam is attracted to the winsome yet tallish Hobbit that he eventually marries. And Frodo nudges Sam in her direction, but Sam is too shy. It's almost as if Frodo is trying to tell Sam "Hey, it's OK if you're straight, I still like you and want you as a friend."
Just like I like my own friendships. :D
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Noel, I think the only reason to do almost anything, certainly as a choice of vocation, is to please yourself.
Then let's put it this way: pleasing others it what pleases me.
Ultimately, I didn't get much pleasure out of writing the song Watch Your Back because it didn't move an audience in the way I'd hoped. I think back much more fondly of the opening and closing number of the 2002 revue, A Time For Heroes and Hoagies. The opening number, Fugue For Cell-Phones, had 9 or 10 counter-melodies consisting of what people say into their phones (mostly giving locations or saying "we're breaking up") and the audience howled with delight. The closing number surprised everyone in the audience by moving them to tears. That's what I love doing.
It's a subtle distinction, perhaps, but I don't write for me. I write to engage my audience.
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De gustibus non es disputandum es, Dear Reader Noel.
Wendy has to think happy thoughts in order to fly to Neverland. It is a "rule." Dorothy has to click her heels to get back to Kansas. It's another example of a "rule." Gandalf's warnings are just a more elaborate version of these "rules," appropriate to the more complex setting--and more complex stakes--in LOTR.
I am not trying to strong-arm you into liking LOTR. There are many, however, who greatly enjoy being transported into a realm that appears quite different from their own. And there are those within that group, like myself, who not only enjoy the ride, but seek meaning in the experience that relates to his or her own world. LOTR contains well delineated stories about trust, friendship, covetousness, teamwork, bravery and heroism (not only in warfare, but, more significantly, in taking on a dangerous and distasteful task) and much, much more.
LOTR: TROTK not your cup of tea? That's fine. It's not my favorite genre, either, but I certainly appreciate the filmmakers' attempt to present the story on screen, and that's just dandy with me.
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I feel like I have to chime in with this discussion. First off, I've seen all of the LOTR movies, and most of the Star Wars movies, and I do not think they're god's gift to cinema. They're fun, they're entertaining, but not earth shattering. However, I've been a lover of fantasy stories my entire life. My childhood was spent making up stories. Granted they sometimes had nothing to do with fantasy or make believe, but they often did. I've also been a bookworm all my life, and many of the books I read as a child were things like the Narnia books, classic fantasy. DR Noel said, and mind you I'm NOT attacking here, just responding, no malice intended at all...anyway, he said that he didn't like story lines with non-human behavior. The majority of fantasy books or stories that I have read, while the circumstances of the plot might be figments of the author's imagination, contain within them illustrations of the most basic elements of human behavior. It is the act of putting them in a non-traditional setting that enables the author to cast those human traits in a new light. Also, I believe that there are few things more human than the desire to imagine things other than what they are.
I'm not bashing people who dislike fantasy here, that is truly not my intent. But I think fantasy stories have an important place in literature and film. The "rules" that require the bit of extra thought are the very element that I love so much...it allows me the chance to take a break from the normal human world for a while, something I think everyone needs at times.
Okay, I've spoken my piece, I'm done. :)
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Jay, are you saying you liked the part where Glinda told Dorothy she could click her heels to go home?
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I'll have to catch up on this fascinating discussion tomorrow. Off early to bed to read and relax. Good-night, all.
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Jay, are you saying you liked the part where Glinda told Dorothy she could click her heels to go home?
Of course not. But it was a metaphor for the notion that we ourselves often hold the power to accomplish what we want, and that we must sometimes endure a significant trial of some sort or other in order to discover it. Many of life's lessons are hard--and hard to like. That's one of the reasons why The Wizard of Oz has endured. It can be enjoyed as a purely superficial fantasy and it also can be enjoyed as a reflection of some of human nature's complexities.
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What a wonderful discussion today! So civilized. So fair. So respectful. And, actually, entertaining too!
Now for my couple of cents... in no particular order...
I'm also one of the "few" who have not seen any of the LOTR movies. I am interested in them, and I'm sure I'll see them some day down the line, but just not now. As I've mentioned before, the "problem" I have with watching movies is the fact that I spend most of my working hours in a dark theatre already, and the last thing I want to do is to spend another few hours in a dark theatre. And movie-going for me tends to come in phases, waves. I'll have a few months where I'll see one or two or even three movies each week... then I won't see anything for another couple of months... or even a year. I'm just that way. ;)
Now when it comes to live theatre, opera, ballet, recitals, concerts and cabarets, I try to see as much as I possibly can. I love seeing live people on stage. I love being brought into their world for an evening. I love being challenged. I love being simply entertained. And, sometimes, yes, even the "very long evenings in the theatre" can have their worth - or at least provide some good/bad stories for later on.
The big issue I have today with "live theatre" is that sometimes the creative team - writers, directors, designers, and, yes, even the producers - listen too much to the audience. At least in regards to running times. I absolutely hate it when the first note at a production meeting is, "We have to trim some stuff out of the first act to get it down to 90 minutes." When did the formula of a 90 minute (or preferably 80 minute) first act and a 50 minute second act become de riguer? When did a show have to have a running time of two and a half hours - with the intermission.
Admittedly, sometimes the "trimming" can be taken care of with pacing and some streamlining of scene and costume changes. Other times, however, and unfortunately, scenes and songs get edited... or scenes and songs get cut out all together.
Yes, an audience can get "restless" sitting in one place for 80 minutes. But that's what watching your water intake before the show and making sure you use the facilities beforehand are for! ;-) But, I've been to many an opera performance where the first act is 100 minutes, 120 minutes, and I've never really heard complaints about the show being too long in that regard.
I guess what I'm rambling on about is the trend to trim shows to a "comfortable" length. And that "comfortable length" seems to get shorter and shorter... And the ticket prices continue to get higher and higher.
It was very interesting after the first couple of previews of the production of South Pacific that I was in the pit for last season. For those first couple of public performances, the whole script and score - plus some interpolations - was presented to the audience. Yes, there were some audience members who thought the show was a little long. BUT there were also those audience members who loved the fact that they got to see the FULL show. That they got to hear the WHOLE score. And, ultimately, they appreciated that they got a lot of "show" for their entertainment dollar.
However, as we went through previews, two whole scenes were eventually cut out, as well as a dance sequence and a bunch of "non-plot-related" lines of dialogue. We went from a just under three hour show, down to one that ran two hours and 40 minutes.
And, unfortunately, some audience members thought that two hours and 40 minutes was still too long!?!?!?
I'm just afraid we're going to get to the point where a show will consist of two 30 minutes acts. Each act will only have 24 minutes of material, and there will be convenient breaks between and within each act in order for the audience members to be "comfortable".
Oh, I guess that turned into a rant... But I think I'm making my point. And it does relate to the current topics of discussion.
It just seems to me, that "we" are getting to a stage where we have to re-train our audiences in a way. Ultimately, it is part of the larger picture of the mass-media and sound-bite driven world we live in today, but I just don't want to get to a point and time where the number one consideration for an aspiring playwright, screenwriter, author, composer, director, etc., has to be the projected running time, number of pages or opportunity for "potty breaks".
OK - I'll stop rambling and ranting on this one... NEXT!
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De gustubus non es diputandum es,
-That quote used to "stare" at me from the door of my piano teacher's studio in college. And it's still there whenever I go pay a visit.
...Now if I could actually remember the literal translation...<hint>
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BTW (By the way in internet lingo), Jane, nope, no female werewolves. All gay. 100% Another myth bites the dust (or would this be a fairy tale?).
Now, TCB, try telling that to June Lockhart!
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DRMusicGuy sends his love and will join you later and thank you in person. We got Sugar Spayed and got to pick her up today, so he has spent most of the time tending to her and keeping her quiet. Now Imust go and catch up on all these posts.
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I haven't been around today because my internet was down, and has just returned. But what wonderful posts to read!
I, too, haven't seen many of the "popular" movies that have become "classics". A small list of films I haven't viewed:
ET
Any Star Wars
Any LOTR
The Wizard of Oz
Casablanca
West Side Story
Any Star Trek
It isn't that I don't WANT to see these, but I just haven't. I'm not really interested in Star Wars, Star Trek, or E.T. to tell you the truth, but I'm not saying they aren't good films. Maybe it's because of my age, but I have a feeling I would be bored within minutes of these.
I never see a lot of the Oscar nomitaed movies because they're R, and I don't feel like sitting through them with my parents (and vice versa), but from what I've heard, a lot of them aren't as good as they're hyped up to be. A film is what you make of it, in my opinion. If you walk into a theater with a pessimistic outlook on the movie you're about to see, then the movie isn't going to be great. If you walk in thinking it's going to be a fabulously acted and well made movie, chances are you'll enjoy it, but be a little dissapointed. The writers have a vision of what they want to make of an idea, and what appeals to one person may not to another. I know that I never pay attention to what the critics say about a film, because I don't want to have an opinion about a movie before I see it.
Aaaaand I'm done. None of that was meant to be offensive, or judgemental, and I'm not saying that I know exactly what I'm talking about. Just my little 16 year old opinion.
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Brava, Sarah!
BUT, rush right out and rent a WIDESCREEN copy of WEST SIDE STORY! ! !
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-That quote used to "stare" at me from the door of my piano teacher's studio in college. And it's still there whenever I go pay a visit.
...Now if I could actually remember the literal translation...<hint>
Well, for one thing, I'm sure your teacher's version didn't mangle the spelling the way I did earlier. More properly, it is de gustibus non es disputandum es.
Not literally, but figuratively it means "To each his own." Or, as the French--and Prince Orlofsky--say, "Chacun a son gout."
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DR Jane - There are two agricultural "museums" in DC. There is the National Arboretum which is on the edge of the DC/MD border, and consists of a bunch of acres of flora, foliage and fauna. They do offer tours and "exhibits" during the winter months, but it's mainly an outdoor "museum", and it's probably not the most comfortable place to visit this time of year. For more info, you can click over to:
www.usna.usda.gov/
The other agricultural museum is the United States Botanic Garden which is located on the Mall. What a beautiful place! And since it's basically one big greenhouse, it's very warm inside. :) The Conservatory recently reopened after an extensive restoration and remodeling, and it's quite literally an oasis in the middle of the US Capitol. And since it's located on the National Mall, you also have easy access to the US Capitol, the various Smithsonian Museums, the Supreme Court, the Folger Shakespeare Library (where you could also catch an evening performance of Craig Wright's new play, Melissa Arctic which is based on Shakespeare's The Winter's Tale - and which I also assisted with during the first few weeks of rehearsals ;)), etc., etc., etc... Needless to say, I highly recommend the United States Botanic Garden. For more information click over to:
www.usbg.gov/
And if you happen to need any restaurant recommendations for this visit, Just Ask! :-)
OH! And I'll be back up in DC this weekend playing auditions for Syracuse University... If you have no plans for Friday or Saturday evening...
And I hope the weather cooperates with your travels. I had no idea until a few minutes ago that there was plenty of snow currently falling up in the NY/NJ area - and I'm guessing over in your neck of the woods too. Safe travels to everyone.
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Back to the Oscars.
Add to the list of what nominated films (in any category) that I've seen: Big Fish, which I enjoyed greatly. Heck, I enjoy about half of what Tim Burton directs, and this was the every-other-film. (It literally works out as every other film of his that I enjoy, too!) Too bad it's only nomination is for Danny Elfman's score.
(Previously listed, so you don't have to go back: Finding Nemo, Mighty Wind, LOTR3, and Pirates of the Caribbean.)
Of the other films nominated for anything, add five more that I think I would enjoy seeing: Master and Commander, Seabiscuit, Mystic River, and Brother Bear and Triplets of Belleville, because I love animation. All of which I can gladly wait until they're on DVD (and yes, I know Seabiscuit is already out, I just wanted a better price on it).
In other words, out of a field of twenty-seven nomininated feature films (not counting the documentary or foreign cagegories), only ten have caught my interest in any way. That's only a little better than one out of three.
How's everyone else doing on the list, math-wise?
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My how I have enjoyed today’s posts. :)
Good night.
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Thank you JoseSPiano. I will read all the details in the morning.
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Jane should go to Occidentals on Pennsylvania Ave. for dinner! It's right next to Chanel, so after you eat you can go and drool at the designer clothing/accesories/furniture :). Not that I would EVER do that...
And I'm not sure if it's allowed anymore, but if there'a any possible way you could get a tour of the Capitol Building, DO IT! I went on one last summer, and it was so much fun! The building is beautiful, absolutely stunning.
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...Sarah posts, conversation stops...
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What a wonderful discussion today! So civilized. So fair. So respectful. And, actually, entertaining too!
And quite informative, also!
I like realism, fantasy, science fiction, animation, etc., etc., etc (a King and I reference) I don't care so much about the form or setting of the storytelling, just how well the story is told. And some times that's not even a consideration. I can thoroughly enjoy a bad movie and absolutely hate a "great" movie. I don't usually have any problem "suspending disbelief." If I have a problem with a movie, it usually is with a lapse in the logic that's been created, something just doesn't make sense within the world of whatever I'm watching...and it's also (usually) a minor detail that just bothers me.
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I actually find following the "rules" of a good fantasy film not much different from following the clues and red herrings of a good mystery (Noel, haven't you written a mystery musical?). My favourite part of the Sherlock Holmes stories are always when the client comes in and tell his/her bizarre story. There is good confusion and there is bad confusion. Not having all the answers and understanding all things immediately is not necessarily bad.
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And, for something completely different...
Here's a link for this years Broadway Bears, (http://www.playbill.com/multimedia/search/3791) one of the annual charity auctions for Broadway Cares/Equity Fights Aids. Some of them really work (check out the Lorelei bear!), although a few don't pass muster this time.
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...Sarah posts, conversation stops...
Nah, DR SwishySarah - I'd call it "Prime Time TV on the West Coast". ;)
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Nah, DR SwishySarah - I'd call it "Prime Time TV on the West Coast". ;)
Yup. Right now I'm watching "Keen Eddie" on the Bravo channel. After that will be the rebroadcast of "Queer Eye" where the guy has been wearing a toupee for 13 years and his wife had never seen him without it and his kids didn't even know that he wore one. His mother, however, did not want him to take it off. She thought that it was a bad idea and was upset when he finally revealed his new look...but she did eventually come around. That was a good "Queer Eye" episode.
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Special thoughts and good wishes to Sugar from Fosca.
(she's been there - done that).
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A change of topic: The first episode of the new series of "Queer As Folk" was shown here on Monday night. I thought the show could not get worse - it did! Harking back to yesterday's comments about TV series - usually the Brits know how to do it - make only 6 - 10 episodes a year and know when not to make any more. Has the UK series "Teachers" made it to the USA yet. I felt I knew some of the characters quite well - staffroom politics and staff insecurities as they really are.
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In regard to Jane's question about female werewolves.
Go rent the movie WOLF with Jack Nicholson and Michelle Pfeiffer. That will answer your question.
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Love, love, love KEEN EDDIE (and the hunkalicious Mark Valley). I recorded it tonight while watching '24' and will see it tomorrow.
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Just wanted to say hello. I have no opinion about today's topic.
Kerry, I hope you got some oreo cake for MusicGuy today.
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For those who watched the next episode of AMERICAN IDOL auditions, I felt really bad for the cute guy who sang well enough but gave Simon a bogus, beauty queen answer to what he'd do with the million dollars should he win it. His voice was good enough to move on. Sorry Paula wasn't there to potentially rescue him from their wrath.
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...After that will be the rebroadcast of "Queer Eye" where the guy has been wearing a toupee for 13 years and his wife had never seen him without it and his kids didn't even know that he wore one. His mother, however, did not want him to take it off. She thought that it was a bad idea and was upset when he finally revealed his new look...
Baldness, of course, is handed down from the mother's side of the family. Makes you wonder what she looks like without her rug! ;D
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Love, love, love KEEN EDDIE (and the hunkalicious Mark Valley). I recorded it tonight while watching '24' and will see it tomorrow.
And Ron Moody is in the episode. I had no idea what he looked like in real life. I'd only seen pictures of him as Fagin in Oliver from 1960 and the movie. And he just turned 80 years old on January 8th! (according to IMDb (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0600531/).
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Just want to add to all those saying how enjoyable reading today's conversation has been. A number of varied opinions, and all stated as such, nothing more. How horribly civilized! :D
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In the spirit of today's lively debate style... :)
I'm not really interested in Star Wars, Star Trek, or E.T. to tell you the truth, but I'm not saying they aren't good films. Maybe it's because of my age, but I have a feeling I would be bored within minutes of these.
I don't think age has much to do with it, honestly. I saw ET when I was very young, and enjoyed it. I saw it when I was older, and also enjoyed it. I know people who were obsessed with it as children, and also those who never cared for it as adults. Same goes for Star Wars, etc. I never quite got into the Star Wars thing, but the 5 year old that I babysit LOVES it. (btw, not my choice to let a 5 year old see such violence...it's the parent's call) But anyway, I don't think it's age...just personality.
A film is what you make of it, in my opinion. If you walk into a theater with a pessimistic outlook on the movie you're about to see, then the movie isn't going to be great. If you walk in thinking it's going to be a fabulously acted and well made movie, chances are you'll enjoy it, but be a little dissapointed.
It's possible that if you are dogmatically convinced that you are going to hate a movie, you will. But unless you have REALLY strong opinions, I think anything can happen once the lights go down. I've walked into movies expecting to hate, and ended up finding real merit in them. I've also really looked forward to movies, and ended up being very dissapointed.
Okay, I'll put the soapbox back in the closet for now...:)
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MattH, I agreed with Simon. I thought the guy was just "okay". And that charity answer was such bullshit...unlike the girl who said she'd buy an old-model T-bird.
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I actually find following the "rules" of a good fantasy film not much different from following the clues and red herrings of a good mystery (Noel, haven't you written a mystery musical?). My favourite part of the Sherlock Holmes stories are always when the client comes in and tell his/her bizarre story. There is good confusion and there is bad confusion. Not having all the answers and understanding all things immediately is not necessarily bad.
Lovely snow. Just out my window there's a guy walking down the middle of the street because the sidewalks haven't been plowed yet.
I think explanations in mysteries are completely different than explanations in sci-fi or fantasy. Mysteries involve the intellect and are fun to follow.
Also, some wonderful fantasy films are wonderful, in part, because they keep the explanation of "rules" down to the minimum. The Wizard of Oz is a great example. Dorothy is told she must go to the Emerald City, and a quick string of eighth notes tell her how. Then there's that annoying heel-clicking explanation at the end, but it's pretty quick. ET, as far as I recall, did very little explanation.
My mystery musical, Murder at the Savoy, or, Pulley of the Yard contains no clues whatsoever. It's a parody of mysteries, and so everything in it is funny. Think Real Inspector Hound if you have trouble picturing this.
But some of my other shows have explanations of "rules" so you can say my distaste for such things were learned the hard way. The first show of mine to get produced (many years ago, in England) was based on The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe. I wrote it when I was 16 and I didn't know better. Another show written for a family audience, Popsicle Palace (now called Not a Lion) had an old otter give the history of the land of Figment. I told the book writer I thought children would not sit still for such a long scene of explanation. He refused to trim it.
When the show was running in Glendale, selling out every week, I had to return to New York. But my collaborator continued to attend, to listen to the audience. Eventually, he told me: "Oh, I should have listened to you about trimming that explanation scene - it's the weakest part of the show."
For my science fiction spoof, Area 51 - The Musical, I got my collaborator to understand: He made the explanation stuff extremely funny. "The tapioca machine's gone kerflooey. Run for your lives!"
Does anyone love the Mr. Lundie scene in Brigadoon?
De gustibus was exactly the right thing to say: it's often translated as "There's no accounting for taste."
And now you've got me singing the Howard Dietz translation of Fledermus:
I believe in the French expression, chaçon a son gout
It is more than a mere obsession, chaçon a son gout
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The word "kerflooey" is not funny, at least in my opinion (IMO, in Internet lingo). I have never laughed at the word "kerflooey". Tapioca is mildly amusing, both as pudding and word. Lithium is a funny word.
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I don't dislike the Lundy scene and find it essential to the plot. The audience has been waiting for this answer to explain the mysteries of Brigadoon that they have encountered those far. Without that explanation, THE CHASE sure would lose it's drama and impact. So would the ending of the show. It's all tied to the Lundy scene. Without it, nothing after it makes much sense.
I also think the audience often like a respite from the action where things get quiet and they can reflect and recap and think on the stuff they need to know for the rest of the show.
I'm a great believer in the mystical unity of three...which means repeating things three times...The old vaudeville adage of "tell 'em what you're goin' do, do it, tell 'em what you just did."
So I occasionally try to remind the audience of certain things they need to remember and keep it all fresh in their mind...I try to do it differently and entertainingly each time and not beat the horse, but remind them so the pay-offs pay-off.
That 's the thing about the "mystical unity of three"... it's straight dramatic technique: the set-up, the build, the pay-off".