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Author Topic: NEED TO BE KNEADED  (Read 22708 times)

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Jrand73

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #120 on: April 19, 2005, 02:17:24 PM »

DR JMK - is your WP archival print a 16 mm?
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Jrand73

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #121 on: April 19, 2005, 02:21:01 PM »

Jayne & Mickey Page Five Dance!  ;D

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Jrand73

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #122 on: April 19, 2005, 02:21:50 PM »

Sounds like MRBK is getting The Works today!

DRJOSE don't forget to check the MAMMA MIA! rag bag for a couple of your friends!
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bk

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #123 on: April 19, 2005, 02:35:39 PM »

If there is a difference of opinion, no matter how impassioned, please present it calmly.  Thank you.

HACYON, baby, HALCYON!
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elmore3003

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #124 on: April 19, 2005, 02:38:09 PM »

I too hate retro PC, particularly where movies and literature are concerned.  To get upset by GONE WITH THE WIND or Bing Crosby warbling in black-face in HOLIDAY INN is just too silly.  You have to judge art and culture from the proper historical perspective and not imposed today's social mores upon it.  In fact, you have to judge history in the same historical perspective.  It's easy to claim Columbus was some hideous monster when, in fact, he was just a creature of his time doing what what was normal in his day and age of exploration and conquest.  And, of course, what is always overlook in the indictment of Columbus is that before he got here...all the Indian tribes were busy conquering each other, warring on each other, torturing each other and raping and enslaving each other.

DRPogue, I agree with you as well.  I never thought of Columbus as a monster, although I do have problems with the whole 15th-16th Century "Age of Discovery" attitude of white supremacy.  However, I do agree with Robert Darnton in THE GREAT CAT MASSACRE that history has to be judged in the proper perspective:  attitudes of 1492 are not the attitudes of today, and an 18th century act like the cat massacre is completely un-PC today.  Darnton's chapter on Bruno Bettelheim's attempt to psychoanalyze folktales from an era in which dire poverty, cruel fates, horrifying wars, etc. led to orphans, starvation, child abuse, possible cannibalism is quite illuminating.
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Tomovoz

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #125 on: April 19, 2005, 02:41:56 PM »

Off the topics totally. What's new.

I could not log on to HHW last night (OZtime). My password was not accepted.  It's OK today.  Very odd.

Last nights viewing here was "Athena".  For some reason I thought that Michael Barnum should be watching it.
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elmore3003

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #126 on: April 19, 2005, 02:52:22 PM »

Last nights viewing here was "Athena".  For some reason I thought that Michael Barnum should be watching it.

Doesn't he own it?
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JoseSPiano

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #127 on: April 19, 2005, 02:54:46 PM »

Good Afternoon!

Back from my walk.  I ended up just walking... and walking... and walking... I was out almost three hours!  I walked up and down Carytown, then up to VCU, then zig-zagged back through the Fan back to my apartment.

A very nice day for a walk, and it actually felt a little "hot" - I think we hit 83 here today.

I went ahead and took another disposable camera with me and snapped photos of some of my personal landmarks.  Places I'll miss.  -And, yes, most of them were/are restaurants. ;)

I almost took pics of some people - business owners, restaurant cooks, etc.- but as soon as I started thinking about those people, I knew I would start crying.  So, I just took pics of their businesses.  I will always know and remember their faces in my mind's eye.
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Tomovoz

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #128 on: April 19, 2005, 02:57:09 PM »

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JoseSPiano

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #129 on: April 19, 2005, 02:58:39 PM »

Ohhh... From the so cute and endearing department...

I was just chatting with my friend, Andy.  He mentioned that he saw a truly attractive man today at work.  He said his heart stopped he was so beautiful.  But my favorite comment was:

"I was embarassed of the shoes i was wearing."

Awwwww....

;)
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Ron Pulliam

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #130 on: April 19, 2005, 03:07:26 PM »

DRPogue, I agree with you as well.  I never thought of Columbus as a monster, although I do have problems with the whole 15th-16th Century "Age of Discovery" attitude of white supremacy.  However, I do agree with Robert Darnton in THE GREAT CAT MASSACRE that history has to be judged in the proper perspective:  attitudes of 1492 are not the attitudes of today, and an 18th century act like the cat massacre is completely un-PC today.  Darnton's chapter on Bruno Bettelheim's attempt to psychoanalyze folktales from an era in which dire poverty, cruel fates, horrifying wars, etc. led to orphans, starvation, child abuse, possible cannibalism is quite illuminating.

Ohhhh, well then...and by that standard, I suppose the mindset of the modern Muslim extremist being what it is, based on his culture and his perspective makes such acts as the  9/11 attacks forgivable.

After all, that's how they were raised and taught...

All things are forgivable, regardless.... ?

Somehow, though, I'm sure the argument is that the acts of extremists today are not in line with what "we" consider acceptable behavior for the 21st Century. Amazing, isn't it that they don't see it that way....

So the Spanish were right...and, therefore, the slave-traders were obviously right...but...was the Third Reich right, too, given the centuries of northern European hatred for the Jews???...within the very narrow confines of the argument at hand.  

I guess you good old boys are right, then!!
« Last Edit: April 19, 2005, 03:13:42 PM by Ron Pulliam »
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Danise

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #131 on: April 19, 2005, 03:14:28 PM »

Evening all!  I told you I'd be home early tonight!

I told the people at work that just one month ago today, I was in the company of three very dashing and wonderful men as they took me on a wonderful day long tour of NYC music shops.  I also told them that today did NOT equal that day in any way, shape or form. So my boss said we would all go out for pizza tomorrow!  :) How about that?
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elmore3003

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #132 on: April 19, 2005, 03:23:58 PM »

Ohhhh, well then...and by that standard, I suppose the mindset of the modern Muslim extremist being what it is, based on his culture and his perspective makes such acts as the  9/11 attacks forgivable.

After all, that's how they were raised and taught...

All things are forgivable, regardless....

DRRonPulliam, no, the acts are unforgivable, even if you're spoiling for a fight tonight.  

My point is that Pogue is right that different mindsets occur at different points in history; for all I know, your great-great-great grandparents and mine could have been slave owners.  I don't know that mine weren't, and while that could be something un-PC in the family tree today, it wasn't considered inappropriate for the time or the culture.  We like to think we're cultivated, educated, high on the environmental structure, but we still produce monsters like Hitler and Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahlmer.  The difference between those gentlemen and the extremists responsible for 9/11 is that we like to think we're 21st-century minds confronting folk whose minds are still in the 15th Century.

My favorite composer Mozart probably bathed, if ever, maybe twice a year, the French court of Versailles had lice, during the Reign of Terror the guillotine was a source of popular entertainment, in 1915 Leo Frank was lynched by a bunch of "do-gooders," whose descendants may have fought the civil rights movement in the 1960s.  We haven't evolved so far as we like to think.  I hope my attitudes in the next 100 years will be judged as a part of its time and culture.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2005, 03:25:13 PM by elmore3003 »
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Danise

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #133 on: April 19, 2005, 03:31:24 PM »

We have POPE!   Things might get hopeless at times but we can't be Popeless.  
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elmore3003

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #134 on: April 19, 2005, 03:32:44 PM »

The opening sentence of THE GO-BETWEEN:
  "The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there."
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Ron Pulliam

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #135 on: April 19, 2005, 03:38:13 PM »

DRRonPulliam, no, the acts are unforgivable, even if you're spoiling for a fight tonight.  

My point is that Pogue is right that different mindsets occur at different points in history; for all I know, your great-great-great grandparents and mine could have been slave owners.  I don't know that mine weren't, and while that could be something un-PC in the family tree today, it wasn't considered inappropriate for the time or the culture.  We like to think we're cultivated, educated, high on the environmental structure, but we still produce monsters like Hitler and Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahlmer.  The difference between those gentlemen and the extremists responsible for 9/11 is that we like to think we're 21st-century minds confronting folk whose minds are still in the 15th Century.

My favorite composer Mozart probably bathed, if ever, maybe twice a year, the French court of Versailles had lice, during the Reign of Terror the guillotine was a source of popular entertainment, in 1915 Leo Frank was lynched by a bunch of "do-gooders," whose descendants may have fought the civil rights movement in the 1960s.  We haven't evolved so far as we like to think.  I hope my attitudes in the next 100 years will be judged as a part of its time and culture.

I get that.  I do.  And I know that perspective is essential to properly judge history.

However, the idea that "ALL" Native Americans were savagely warring with one another and enslaving one another and raping one another is totally wrong.

Totally wrong.

And saying Columbus and his men should not be vilified for their abuse and misconduct of the friendly natives they encountered is totally wrong.  

They were supposedly "Christian" men.  Being a Christian in 1492 meant pretty much the same thing as being a Christian in 2005.  Murder and stealing were sins.  Murder was a mortal sin.

Catholic priests accompanied those Spaniards...and apparently condoned the barbarism because the Natives worshipped different gods.

I may be overreacting, Larry....and Charles...and if I've done so, I'm sorry.  

I don't want to fight.  But I also can't NOT argue about some of the comments being proferred...regardless of the time and their ways...it was certainly wrong by "our" standards.  It was also wrong by the standards of the native American peoples.  And it was most certainly wrong by the standards of Christianity.

Greed for gold and that very peculiar brand of Spanish sadism that made all means toward an end acceptable were not the norm for the rest of the world.

IMO, of course.
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Danise

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #136 on: April 19, 2005, 03:40:37 PM »

I just heard on the news about the ten year old that killed his mother and then himself.   Sigh.    He left a note saying that he was sorry.  
« Last Edit: April 19, 2005, 03:41:23 PM by Danise »
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Jrand73

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #137 on: April 19, 2005, 03:40:47 PM »

So what do you suppose Allison WOULD make of all of this?
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Jrand73

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #138 on: April 19, 2005, 03:42:10 PM »

Mr Errol Flynn at the END of his Halcyon Days at Warner Bros will be on TCM tonight in 1948's THE ADVENTURES OF DON JUAN.  I like this movie, so I will be watching.

It features the mother of CP's neighbor Kris Tabori - Miss Viveca Lindfors.
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Tomovoz

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #139 on: April 19, 2005, 03:42:27 PM »

For DRs Jennifer, RLP and MAtt et al

How the choice was made...
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Danise

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #140 on: April 19, 2005, 03:47:53 PM »

For DRs Jennifer, RLP and MAtt et al

How the choice was made...

WWSS?*

(What Would Simon Say?)    :)  ;)    
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Danise

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #141 on: April 19, 2005, 03:48:47 PM »

Mr Errol Flynn at the END of his Halcyon Days at Warner Bros will be on TCM tonight in 1948's THE ADVENTURES OF DON JUAN.  I like this movie, so I will be watching.

It features the mother of CP's neighbor Kris Tabori - Miss Viveca Lindfors.

I LOVED Don Juan!  What time?
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elmore3003

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #142 on: April 19, 2005, 03:54:38 PM »

I get that.  I do.  And I know that perspective is essential to properly judge history.

However, the idea that "ALL" Native Americans were savagely warring with one another and enslaving one another and raping one another is totally wrong.

Totally wrong.

And saying Columbus and his men should not be vilified for their abuse and misconduct of the friendly natives they encountered is totally wrong.  

They were supposedly "Christian" men.  Being a Christian in 1492 meant pretty much the same thing as being a Christian in 2005.  Murder and stealing were sins.  Murder was a mortal sin.

Catholic priests accompanied those Spaniards...and apparently condoned the barbarism because the Natives worshipped different gods.

I may be overreacting, Larry....and Charles...and if I've done so, I'm sorry.  

I don't want to fight.  But I also can't NOT argue about some of the comments being proferred...regardless of the time and their ways...it was certainly wrong by "our" standards.  It was also wrong by the standards of the native American peoples.  And it was most certainly wrong by the standards of Christianity.

Greed for gold and that very peculiar brand of Spanish sadism that made all means toward an end acceptable were not the norm for the rest of the world.

IMO, of course.

DRRonPulliam, the Catholic Church and its policies toward infidels, from the Crusades to the Inquisition to Pope Pius' overlooking the Nazi atrocities, still boggle my mind.  Clearly, at that time and place Christianity was a white supremist paradise, and wiping out or converting the heathen was God's intention.

I don't think the Spaniards were the only guilty ones, however; Elizabethan England may have produced Shakespeare, but Elizabeth's father used politics to kill several women.  The slave trade in the Indies kept the landed gentry wealthy from their plantations, and Jane Austen's "good" characters think nothing of it.   I'm sure the French and Dutch were equally cruel in their territories.  God knows in Europe alone the Hundred Years' War, the Thirty Years War, and the "liberation" of Napoleon's armies were filled with rape, public execution, and atrocity.  All done by "Christian" men, often in the name of God.  

I'm enjoying the debate.  Apology accepted.
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elmore3003

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #143 on: April 19, 2005, 03:55:48 PM »

So what do you suppose Allison WOULD make of all of this?

She would probably wonder when she'd have sex with the right person to make her a star.
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Michael

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #144 on: April 19, 2005, 04:01:32 PM »

BK: Is a fistful of dynamite the complete restored version or the cut version they showed in the USA? I remember seeing the uncut in Montreal serveral times. I think it played three years at a small theater near my house.

158 min / Italy:162 min (restored version) / USA:120 min (initial US release) / USA:138 min / USA:154 min (Laserdisc version)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2005, 04:03:23 PM by Michael Shayne »
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Tomovoz

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #145 on: April 19, 2005, 04:06:07 PM »

I watched "The Mission" a few weeks ago.  Nothing has changed. The unholy trinity of Church, State and Commerce still "slaughter" the innocents in the quest for power.
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Ron Pulliam

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #146 on: April 19, 2005, 04:11:11 PM »

We've had "Seussical, The Musical" and now we have "Newsical, the Musical".

How long before we get "J'Accusical, the Musical"??????
« Last Edit: April 19, 2005, 04:11:26 PM by Ron Pulliam »
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Jrand73

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #147 on: April 19, 2005, 04:16:49 PM »

8 pm EST on TCM - DRDANISE.  Less than one hour.
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Jrand73

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #148 on: April 19, 2005, 04:19:05 PM »

She would probably wonder when she'd have sex with the right person to make her a star.

DR ELMORE!  Miss Mary Jane was a good Catholic girl who would NEVER consider anything like that.  She stayed home nights reading books on politics and practicing the piano.

She might have been a bigger star if she hadn't been so nice.  ;D

As Mara Corday said:  "She was a nice girl without a jealous bone in her body."
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Danise

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Re:NEED TO BE KNEADED
« Reply #149 on: April 19, 2005, 04:19:08 PM »

Well, I might get to see part of it.

Got to run.  

Laters, all!
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