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Author Topic: FIT AS A FIDDLE  (Read 90273 times)

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Ron Pulliam

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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #120 on: March 16, 2006, 10:58:46 AM »

Nah, DR RLP - I wasn't born in an ice house....it's just Kelly's terpsichory that leaves me cold.

If one might point out in the still that has now been posted Three Times today, from the "Gotta Dance" number from SINGIN' IN THE RAIN - choreographer Kelly has directed that ALL four other people including Miss Charisse be looking AT HIM and no where else....even the hat on Miss Charisse's well-appointed leg.  

And I don't remember Mr Astaire inserting self satisfied reaction shots of his mug into other people's dance solos in his films....

Oh Gene can dance...of course....different music - same god damned dance, as Judy said....  But yes he knows some steps.

Perhaps in another lifetime you'll show them how it should be done?  :).

But where else, pray, should any of those actors BE looking?  Charisse is toying with Kelly...Charisse is the moll of a gangster whose mooks are sitting with her...OF COURSE they're looking toward Kelly..it's what anyone WOULD do.  They want to see how he will react to her game.

:D

I'ts called motivation....works the same in choreography as it does in blocking.

Or should.

As for the alleged Garland quote:  Judy made up things throughout her life to get laughs.  For instance, the comments about Lahr, Haley and Bolger squeezing her out of dances was never true  She made it up for a laugh.  It was a great anecdote and she was a considerable wit.   I've never seen the Garland quote on Kelly...but if she said it, I don't believe she meant it.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2006, 11:12:52 AM by Ron Pulliam »
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vixmom

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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #121 on: March 16, 2006, 11:01:25 AM »

Nah, DR RLP - I wasn't born in an ice house....it's just Kelly's terpsichory that leaves me cold.

I had to look this up!

Terp·sich·o·re    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (tûrp-sk-r)
n.
Greek Mythology. The Muse of dancing and choral singing.
terpsichore The art of dancing.

[Latin Terpsichor, from Greek Terpsikhor, from feminine of terpsikhoros, dance-loving  : terpein, to delight + khoros, dance; see gher-1 in Indo-European Roots.]





I learn sumpin everyday on this here site!
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Ben

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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #122 on: March 16, 2006, 11:01:40 AM »

I know it not question day but I am hoping a New York City Hainsie/Kimlet can answer my question...

First off a little back ground....

I know Canon street was historically near what was once known as Hell's Kitchen and near Five Points.

However I am looking to see where 122 West 20th is in context to that area. The person who wrote what we call the Infamous letter lived at that address in 1899 and her name was Mary C. McDevitt.

Dakota, If you're talking about a street in old New York called Cannon Street (I can't find a Canon Street) it wasn't near Hells Kitchen which is the West Midtown area now often referred to as Clinton. Some people say it begins at 8th Avenue in the 40s and goes west to the Hudson River and north to 57th Street while others think it begins at 9th Avenue and continues west and north. Cannon Street was closer to Five Points, a notorious slum area in lower Manhattan (Five Points was in Scorsese's Gangs of New York and in the novel The Alienist). Five Points was not near Hell's Kitchen (Clinton).

Here is some information about Five Points:

Five Points (or The Five Points) was a notorious slum centered on the intersection of Worth St. (originally Anthony St.), Baxter St. (originally Orange St.) and a now demolished stretch of Park St. on Manhattan island, New York City, USA. The name Five Points derived from the five corners at this intersection. The neighborhood took form by about 1820 next to the site of the former Collect Pond, which had been drained due to a severe pollution problem. The landfill job on the Collect was a poor one, and surface seepage to the southeast created swampy, insect ridden conditions resulting in a precipitous drop in land value. Most middle and upper-middle class inhabitants fled, leaving the neighborhood open to the influx of poor immigrants that started in the early 1820s and reached a torrent in the 1840s.

At Five Points' height only certain areas of London's East End vied with it in sheer population density, disease, infant and child mortality, unemployment, violent crime and other classic ills of the destitute. But to characterize Five Points as a pure wasteland would be misleading, for it had a certain rough vibrancy that gave rise to some of the more admirable aspects of modern American life. It was the original melting pot, at first consisting primarily of newly emancipated African Americans and newly immigrated Irish. The confluence of African, Irish, Anglo and, later, Jewish and Italian culture, seen first in Five Points, would be an important leavening in the growth of America.

The fusion of the Irish jig with the basically African shuffle gave rise in the short term to Tap Dance and in the long term to a music hall genre that was a major precursor to American Jazz and Rock and Roll. This fusion occurred in Five Points, almost certainly at Almack's dance hall (also known as "Pete Williams's Place") on the east side of Orange St. (today's Baxter St.) just south of its intersection with Bayard St., circa 1840. This ground is today occupied by Columbus Park, used primarily by residents of modern Chinatown.

The rough and tumble local politics of "the ould Sixth ward" (Manhattan was at the time divided into "wards", with most of Five Points in the Sixth), while not free of corruption, set important precedents for the election of non-Anglo-Saxons to key offices.

Although the tensions between the African Americans and the Irish were legendary, their cohabitation in Five Points was perhaps the first large scale example of grassroots racial integration in history, with the possible exception of the integration of Spanish 'caucasians' with the people they conquered in Cuba, Mexico and Peru in the 16th century. In the end, the Five Points African American community moved to Manhattan's West Side and to the then undeveloped north of the island, but the years spent pursuing daily life alongside the Irish in Five Points and, later, alongside Jews and Italians in the same neighborhood, helped create a sense of common purpose among these minorities which even today manifests itself in the liberal wing of the American political spectrum, especially the Democratic Party.

About 1880, slum clearance efforts succeeded in razing Five Points and re-purposing the land-- a pyrrhic victory in that the masses of the indigent simply moved to the nearby Lower East Side.

The neighborhood was featured in Martin Scorsese's 2002 film Gangs of New York. The definitive history of Five Points is Professor Tyler Anbinder's "Five Points: The Nineteenth-Century New York City Neighborhood That Invented Tap Dance, Stole Elections and Became the Worlds Most Notorious Slum", ISBN 0684859955.

Here is some information about Cannon Street and Cannon's Dock and Cannon's Wharf which are near the now non-existent Cannon Street:

Cannon Street.  (part) Originally ran from Grand Street north to Houston Street between Columbia and Lewis Streets. It was demapped for housing projects in the 1950s except for the block between Broome Street and Delancey Street South.

Cannon’s Dock. (L18-E19) At the foot of Broome Street, east of Goerck Street.

Cannon’s Wharf. (E-M18) Built before 1730 on the East River between Beekman Street and what is now Fulton Street.

Here is a link to a Web site listing former street names in Manhattan

Old Street Names

The area you ask about, 122 West 20th, is in my neighborhood of Chelsea. It's between Sixth Avenue (AKA Avenue of the Americas) and Seventh Avenue probably in the middle of the block on the south side of the street. You looked at Deb/Vixmom's map so you have a general idea of where it sits..The area is a mix of residential and the remnants of light industrial spaces which still fill the neighborhood. I assume 122 was an residence of some kind so it's probably still there. It's not that far from Hell's Kitchen (about 20-22 blocks north and 2-3 blocks west) but it is farther from Five Points and Cannon Street.

Maybe I missed it but what is this "Infamous Letter"?

This is the longest post I've written in a long time. Someone silence me  :D
« Last Edit: March 16, 2006, 11:06:09 AM by Ben »
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vixmom

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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #123 on: March 16, 2006, 11:02:22 AM »

Perhaps in another lifetime you'll show them how it should be done?  :).

But where else, pray, should any of those actors BE looking?  Charisse is toying with Kelly...Charisse is the moll of a gangster whose mooks are sitting with her...OF COURSE they're looking toward Kelly..it's what anyone WOULD do.

:D

I'ts called motivation....works the same in choreography as it does in blocking.

Or should.

here we go    ::)
















 :-*
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Ben

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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #124 on: March 16, 2006, 11:03:53 AM »

I see it was not far from Broadway but definitely north of the area once known as Hell's Ktichen.

Actually, 20th Street is south of Hell's Kitchen.
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vixmom

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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #125 on: March 16, 2006, 11:04:57 AM »

This is the longest post I've written in a long time. Someone silence me :-)

Never!! That was very interesting.
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elmore3003

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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #126 on: March 16, 2006, 11:12:47 AM »

Perhaps in another lifetime you'll show them how it should be done?  :).

But where else, pray, should any of those actors BE looking?
:D


Well, if they were straight men, I'd assuming they'd be looking at her.
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Ron Pulliam

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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #127 on: March 16, 2006, 11:13:41 AM »

Well, if they were straight men, I'd assuming they'd be looking at her.

If you were directing a play, is that the direction you'd give men in a scene when it isn't the woman's line...but the leading man's?

If you were the playwright, and your male lead had a key bit of dialogue, would you appreciate it if the other actors were ogling one of the women sitting stage right while the actor was "acting" and reciting his line stage left?

I think not.   ;)

« Last Edit: March 16, 2006, 11:30:45 AM by Ron Pulliam »
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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #128 on: March 16, 2006, 11:14:55 AM »

here we go    ::)
:-*

Well what's your damage, Heather?  Are we crowding you or something?

 :-*

Has our rainbow of pissiness over Gene Kelly reached critical mass?

:D
« Last Edit: March 16, 2006, 11:30:16 AM by Ron Pulliam »
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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #129 on: March 16, 2006, 11:21:51 AM »

Erin go bragh!
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Ron Pulliam

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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #130 on: March 16, 2006, 11:22:10 AM »

The best-laid plans of mice & men gae aft aglee!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2006, 11:23:45 AM by Ron Pulliam »
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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #131 on: March 16, 2006, 11:22:40 AM »

Fasten your seat belts...it's gonna be a bumpy night!
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George

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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #132 on: March 16, 2006, 11:29:51 AM »

Mr. Fred Astaire:  Puttin’ On the Ritz, You're All the World to Me where he danced on the ceiling in "Royal Wedding," just about anything else

Mr. Gene Kelly:  Gotta Dance, Singin’ In the Rain, Moses Supposes, just about anything else

Miss Judy Garland:  The Man That Got Away, Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas, The Trolley Song, Get Happy, just about anything else
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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #133 on: March 16, 2006, 11:31:16 AM »

So did anyone rush out to buy a Gor Mkhitarian CD?

Do I not have any influence on your people?

I really do think that Armenian pop music is the next new big fad!

I didn't buy his CD, but when I got home, I downloaded several pictures of him!  That's a bit of an influence, don't you think?? ;)
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vixmom

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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #134 on: March 16, 2006, 11:32:49 AM »

Well what's your damage, Heather?  Are we crowding you or something?

 :-*


Heather?!  I told you yesterday I was Brooke.... babble babble babble
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Jrand74

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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #135 on: March 16, 2006, 11:41:44 AM »

Broadway Vibes for DRJOSE!   ;D

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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #136 on: March 16, 2006, 11:41:47 AM »


Has our rainbow of pissiness
:D

Watch your phraseology!!!
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vixmom

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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #137 on: March 16, 2006, 11:42:49 AM »

Broadway Vibes for DRJOSE!   ;D



Rodzinski... have you seen the Broadway edition of this Playbill yet?

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elmore3003

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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #138 on: March 16, 2006, 11:42:59 AM »

The best-laid plans of mice & men gae aft aglee!

Yes, it will be a bumpy night!  Since I was a rather good director, and better than some I've worked with as an orchestrator, I do my homework.  I was always good at research, psychology and motivation.

Robert Burns, a Scottish poet, wrote the famous line "The best laid schemes o' mice an' men gang aft a-gley" in "To a Mouse."  

Following "Erin go bragh," I just want to point out it isn't an Irish thing.  However, I am.  An Irish thing. :)
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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #139 on: March 16, 2006, 11:44:24 AM »

LOL if I were the director, choreographer, AND star as well - they would be looking EXACTLY where they are.

And as for the Garland quote - it was actually something she said about Bolger when he guested on her TV show....but I thought it fit Mr Kelly quite well.  I don't think I put quotes around it indicating that Judy said it specifically about Kelly, just that she said it.  I said it about....you know who... the King of All Movie Dance....

Anybody see XANADU lately?
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Ben

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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #140 on: March 16, 2006, 11:47:36 AM »

I think I forgot to respond to Jose's question yesterday. No, neither Anthony or I will be at Chelsea this evening to watch Miss Davis in Hush Hush Sweet Charlotte.
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DakotaCelt

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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #141 on: March 16, 2006, 12:01:38 PM »

Dakota, If you're talking about a street in old New York called Cannon Street (I can't find a Canon Street) it wasn't near Hells Kitchen which is the West Midtown area now often referred to as Clinton. Some people say it begins at 8th Avenue in the 40s and goes west to the Hudson River and north to 57th Street while others think it begins at 9th Avenue and continues west and north. Cannon Street was closer to Five Points, a notorious slum area in lower Manhattan (Five Points was in Scorsese's Gangs of New York and in the novel The Alienist). Five Points was not near Hell's Kitchen (Clinton).

Here is some information about Five Points:

Five Points (or The Five Points) was a notorious slum centered on the intersection of Worth St. (originally Anthony St.), Baxter St. (originally Orange St.) and a now demolished stretch of Park St. on Manhattan island, New York City, USA. The name Five Points derived from the five corners at this intersection. The neighborhood took form by about 1820 next to the site of the former Collect Pond, which had been drained due to a severe pollution problem. The landfill job on the Collect was a poor one, and surface seepage to the southeast created swampy, insect ridden conditions resulting in a precipitous drop in land value. Most middle and upper-middle class inhabitants fled, leaving the neighborhood open to the influx of poor immigrants that started in the early 1820s and reached a torrent in the 1840s.

At Five Points' height only certain areas of London's East End vied with it in sheer population density, disease, infant and child mortality, unemployment, violent crime and other classic ills of the destitute. But to characterize Five Points as a pure wasteland would be misleading, for it had a certain rough vibrancy that gave rise to some of the more admirable aspects of modern American life. It was the original melting pot, at first consisting primarily of newly emancipated African Americans and newly immigrated Irish. The confluence of African, Irish, Anglo and, later, Jewish and Italian culture, seen first in Five Points, would be an important leavening in the growth of America.

The fusion of the Irish jig with the basically African shuffle gave rise in the short term to Tap Dance and in the long term to a music hall genre that was a major precursor to American Jazz and Rock and Roll. This fusion occurred in Five Points, almost certainly at Almack's dance hall (also known as "Pete Williams's Place") on the east side of Orange St. (today's Baxter St.) just south of its intersection with Bayard St., circa 1840. This ground is today occupied by Columbus Park, used primarily by residents of modern Chinatown.

The rough and tumble local politics of "the ould Sixth ward" (Manhattan was at the time divided into "wards", with most of Five Points in the Sixth), while not free of corruption, set important precedents for the election of non-Anglo-Saxons to key offices.

Although the tensions between the African Americans and the Irish were legendary, their cohabitation in Five Points was perhaps the first large scale example of grassroots racial integration in history, with the possible exception of the integration of Spanish 'caucasians' with the people they conquered in Cuba, Mexico and Peru in the 16th century. In the end, the Five Points African American community moved to Manhattan's West Side and to the then undeveloped north of the island, but the years spent pursuing daily life alongside the Irish in Five Points and, later, alongside Jews and Italians in the same neighborhood, helped create a sense of common purpose among these minorities which even today manifests itself in the liberal wing of the American political spectrum, especially the Democratic Party.

About 1880, slum clearance efforts succeeded in razing Five Points and re-purposing the land-- a pyrrhic victory in that the masses of the indigent simply moved to the nearby Lower East Side.

The neighborhood was featured in Martin Scorsese's 2002 film Gangs of New York. The definitive history of Five Points is Professor Tyler Anbinder's "Five Points: The Nineteenth-Century New York City Neighborhood That Invented Tap Dance, Stole Elections and Became the Worlds Most Notorious Slum", ISBN 0684859955.

Here is some information about Cannon Street and Cannon's Dock and Cannon's Wharf which are near the now non-existent Cannon Street:

Cannon Street.  (part) Originally ran from Grand Street north to Houston Street between Columbia and Lewis Streets. It was demapped for housing projects in the 1950s except for the block between Broome Street and Delancey Street South.

Cannon’s Dock. (L18-E19) At the foot of Broome Street, east of Goerck Street.

Cannon’s Wharf. (E-M18) Built before 1730 on the East River between Beekman Street and what is now Fulton Street.

Here is a link to a Web site listing former street names in Manhattan

Old Street Names

The area you ask about, 122 West 20th, is in my neighborhood of Chelsea. It's between Sixth Avenue (AKA Avenue of the Americas) and Seventh Avenue probably in the middle of the block on the south side of the street. You looked at Deb/Vixmom's map so you have a general idea of where it sits..The area is a mix of residential and the remnants of light industrial spaces which still fill the neighborhood. I assume 122 was an residence of some kind so it's probably still there. It's not that far from Hell's Kitchen (about 20-22 blocks north and 2-3 blocks west) but it is farther from Five Points and Cannon Street.

Maybe I missed it but what is this "Infamous Letter"?

This is the longest post I've written in a long time. Someone silence me  :D

I am drawing from perahps some family legend and mystery...

Known facts:, according to my 3xggrandfather's death certificate he was born 1 February 1850 [we think] in NYC. He was born to John Gallegher and Hanora Sweeney. However his father disappeared and his mother died 1 November 1859. My 3xggrandfather entered the Civil War at 13 years of age in 1863 in wisconsin. According to his pension records, they list his birthyear as 1849. He nor his descaendants talk about the past and it is proving to be an interesting journey. From what I can gather I have come across 15 differnt spellings of Gallagher that can be attributed to him. The relations in ND use a completely different spelling from the one I am using.  I tackle this line every once in a while. when I need a break tackling my tangled web of GErmans on my father's side.
\
Below are excerpts of the infamous letter that has been handed dwon. Unfortuantely part of a page is missing.... So I am stuck with the remnants. (This letter has been a challenge to decipher it is definitely written in the Irish English.) My freind Cassie has even had a tough time for it is in a dialect she is not familiar.

Back to the story, Eliza, my 3xggrandfather Edward's sister, thought she was placing him ina  school for an education in 1860 after their mother died. Eliza was taken by a Dr. Smith to do work and then eventually moved in with some Gallagher relatives, the John Mcentees.  Whn Eliza tried to visit Edward in 'the school' they said he was no longer there. (My comment: By the time of the 1860 census, he turns up in the Wisconsin census. )

John Mcentee's daugtter, Mary C. McDevitt sent the letter in 1899 via a law frim in Grand Forks, ND She is 10 years older than my 3xggrandfather. Her mother was a Gallagher, a sister to Edward's father.

Mary was happy to make connection with Edward after years of searching.  and the information is sketchy.

She goes into some informatin about Eliza and then it talks about Mary McDevitt and her sister Sarah Hyde and Sarah's daughter Jennie.

One story has it that Eliza married a McDonald....






Family legend: They lived in Hell's kitchen... Ben you just confirmed that they did not. My suspicions that is it was further north also.
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DakotaCelt

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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #142 on: March 16, 2006, 12:06:33 PM »

Fasten your seat belts...it's gonna be a bumpy night!

hands Ron a helmet....

bumpity, bumpity, bumpity.....
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Mischief is where you are old enough to know better but young enough to try!~~ DakotaCelt, 2004
If a man loses something and he goes back and looks carefully, he will find it ~~ Sitting Bull
Noodles Grow... Meat Shrinks... Oh the beauty of cooking!
"Humility is probably the most difficult virtue to realize." --Thomas Yellowtail, CROW
Continue to contaminate your bed, and you will one night suffocate in your own waste. ~~ Chief Seattle, 1854

MBarnum

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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #143 on: March 16, 2006, 12:09:06 PM »

LOL DR George! That's a good start! LOL!
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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #144 on: March 16, 2006, 12:09:52 PM »

hands Ron a helmet....

bumpity, bumpity, bumpity.....

You're handing Ron a helmet?  He's the one with the sword!!!!
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MBarnum

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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #145 on: March 16, 2006, 12:10:12 PM »

LOL...as much as I love Gene Kelly, watching XANADU would just be going too far!

(I do listen to the soundtrack though  8) )
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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #146 on: March 16, 2006, 12:13:15 PM »

The Legendary Sword of Snarkiness... and he wields it well... showing mercy to none!
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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #147 on: March 16, 2006, 12:14:00 PM »


(I do listen to the soundtrack though  8) )

on purpose?
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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #148 on: March 16, 2006, 12:14:35 PM »

oops!  Its catching!
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DakotaCelt

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Re:FIT AS A FIDDLE
« Reply #149 on: March 16, 2006, 12:16:03 PM »

The Legendary Sword of Snarkiness... and he wields it well... showing mercy to none!

You are so right, he is the high lord of snark
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Mischief is where you are old enough to know better but young enough to try!~~ DakotaCelt, 2004
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