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[DERBRUCER]

The most overrated musicals?

Tie with Cats, Phantom of the Opera and Les Miserables. Take away all the fancy sets, costumes and special effects and you have a fair to mediocre musicals.

Having postured against nit picking, I herewith pick:

We are talking about Musical Theatre - not musical recitals. The sets , the costumes, the effects are all part of what makes Theatre a great visual experience. In the same vein, shouldn't we discount choreography - it's just a visual goodie!

CATS is first and formost a dance show - the "songs" are incidental, but appealing nonetheless.

Les Miz is intended to be spectacle - it means to appeal to the heart, not the mind - it is great theatricality (if, to a purist, musically mundane).

If you want to initiate the masses to Musical Theatre, CATS and Les Miz are great starting points. Many sophisticated music lovers started their journey with Les Overtures("William Tell" and "1812" ) - hey, The Lone Ranger and Fireworks can't be all bad.

der Brucer

[Matthew]

Favorite Shows (in no particular order)

Aspects of Love
Sunset Blvd.
Sweeney Todd
Cabaret
Hello, Dolly!
Lucky Stiff
The Phantom of the  Opera
Cats
Little Shop of Horrors
The Sound of Music

Ok, WAY too much Lloyd Webber on that list, I know.  But as I tell my students, picking a "favorite" anything needs to come from how that thing makes you feel.  If it stirs up any emotion repedidly, then you must have some connection and therefore, it is your favorite.  Yeah, ALW has had some bad lyricists, his last two shows (Whistle Down the Wind and The Beautiful Game) have some really bad lyric moments in them, while the score's are wonderful ... well, let me re-phrase that, I can listen to The Beautiful Game every day, while I've been known to start listening to Whistle and never get through it.

Ok... favorite composers .... let me preface by saying these composers have written some great songs, but the songs were in musicals with not-so-great books, therefore, doesn't make a great show - IMHO.

Rogers and Hart

Cole Porter

Stephen Sondheim (am I the only one that loves "A Little Night Music" but tends to sleep through it??)

Jerry Herman

Ahrens and Flaherty

Maury Yeston (yes, Titanic was not a great show, but the SCORE... oh the SCORE!)

Stephen Schwartz (Besides Pippin and Godpsell, the rest of the SS musicals have WAY too much (good) musc and boring books)

Alan Menkin

Michel Legrand

Andrew Lloyd Webber

Irving Berlin

Guilty Pleasure musicals -

Mamma Mia
Starlight Express

[Jrand73]

Frank Loesser!

Whew!  How could I leave him out!

And well - isn't music a subjective thing?  And can't we tell by all of our lists here?

Over rated? For me, subjectively:

SWEENEY TODD
SWEENEY TODD
SWEENEY TODD
RENT
TWO GENTLEMEN OF VERONA

Still thinking.

Favorite I have just heard on LP/CD:

NO STRINGS

[Jrand73]

ELMORE was talking about Yeston's NEW WORDS - and I have to say when I play MR BK's produced recording of that song and present it in sign language - there is not a dry eye in the house!

And if only for Chinese Food in Bed and all the What If's - how could I leave out the host of our little club - Bruce Kimmel?  And so, I won't!

[Ben]

On to page 3 with some others, even though I've posted my 10

I do enjoy Lerner & Loewe and Mr. Cy Coleman

My overrated show is Kiss of the Spider Woman. I know this show has many fans on board but I LOATHED the movie and do not care for the musical at all. If I hear The Day After That (or whatever it's called) as the Great Gay Anthem one more time, I shall scream, Mr. Bumble (an Oliver reference and I do enjoy Mr. Lionel Bart). I am also not a fan of Blood Brothers. Other overrated shows have been mentioned as well, including Les Miz (I don't hate it, I just don't think it's one of the greatest), Cats (this show I do dislike), Miss Saigon (a helicopter does not a musical make) and The Lion King (while I found some of it to be gorgeous to look at, I found the hoopla surrounding it to be mystifying, mediocre score, some great set and directorial pieces and a standard story told w/o much new or exciting)

[DERBRUCER]

Notes from yesterposts:

Tomovoz:

For the interest of the few pop people (of a certain age) at HHW,I have also recorded hard to find US singles "There's No Such Thing" (Jimmy Darren -from "Gidget")

Us people "of a certain age" who loved Moondoggie prefer the title "Grandpop People".

And then George declares:

and Paul Anthony Stewart (I've never heard of him)

16 years on  “The Guiding Light” – you must get your head out the stacks and see the real world.

der Brucer (who joins Darren and Stewart as Philly boys who just don't get no respect!)

[Jrand73]

I think I found a new definition of ironic:

[bk]

Again, this is favorite musicals, not necessarily "best" musicals.  For me, a lot of my favorites are firmly based in productions I link them with - hence, Noel hates Follies, I love Follies because I saw its legendary original production.  I've seen every subsequent major production and yes, they're all terrible and you have no clew why this musical is considered "great".  I feel the same about Company - all subsequent productions have lessened its greatness.  In any case, it's all subjective, and I'm fascinated by the lists so far.  Here's mine.  These are shows I have loved, both onstage and with endless repeated listenings of their cast albums.

Yes, in no particular order:

The Most Happy Fella (devastatingly beautiful, magnificent, four-hankie show)
Follies
A Chorus Line
Li'l Abner
The Music Man
Sweeney Todd
Flower Drum Song (before revisions)
Gypsy (a perfect musical)
Cabaret (before revisions and additions)
1776

A couple of runners-up: Dreamgirls, 110 and I Do! I Do!, Annie Get Your Gun (before revisions), Guys and Dolls

Guilty pleasures (for their scores): Wildcat, Smile, Stop the World and Roar of the Greasepaint (two of my most-listened-to albums), Take Me Along, and Sugar (sue me).

Ten favorite (not necessarily "best") composer/lyricists - in no particular order:

Frank Loesser
Stephen Sondheim
Schmidt and Jones (big surprise)
Jule Styne - with Comden and Green or anyone else
Charles Strouse/Lee Adams (I can't help it)
Richard Rodgers - with Hart, Hammerstein, and the aforementioned Mr. Sondheim
Burton Lane - with Mr. Alan Jay Lerner or Yip Harburg
Cy Coleman - with Dorothy Fields and Carolyn Leigh
Kander and Ebb
George and Ira Gershwin

Runner up: Bock and Harnick

Guilty pleasures: Marvin Hamlisch, Bricusse and Newley, Maltby and Shire (don't like their shows, but enjoy their songs), Billy Barnes and many more.

Most overrated musical: Certainly I think Miss Saigon, given its hype and success, was a wash-out for me.  And I've never cottoned to Oklahoma! either, no matter how good the productions.  

Most overrated composer/lyricist: Harder.  I'd agree with Noel on his choice, but I'd have to lump all the other current batch that usually gets mentioned with him (The Usual Suspects) - but that's too easy.  I'd like to choose someone who's been around a little longer, with a few more shows.  And I'm afraid I'm going to have to give this choice to someone whose stuff I just don't respond to in any way - oh, there are some decent things, I suppose, but not in proportion the the success he's had.  I'm afraid it's a target most people think too easy, but there you are: Andrew Lloyd Webber.  From the very beginning, with Joseph, I have never responded to his musical language.  

[DERBRUCER]

...The Lion King (while I found some of it to be gorgeous to look at, I found the hoopla surrounding it to be mystifying, mediocre score, some great set and directorial pieces and a standard story told w/o much new or exciting)

To appreciate the "hoopla" you need only look around at the many pre-schoolers sitting still for two hours in rapt appreciation - every kid in these audiences is on the first rung to musical theatre paradise.

der Burcer (there goes Grandpa again!)

[bk]

I really like the album (2 disk OBC) - I wonder how it works on stage?

der Brucer

As I've written MANY times (and which I'm sure you've read, der Brucer), I was lucky enough to see a theater-in-the-round production of Happy Fella with Robert Weede and Art Lund, and it remains one of the greatest theater experiences I've ever had.  Every bit of it worked perfectly.  I've seen several productions since that have been merely okay.  Merely okay productions can sap any great musical of its power and make you wonder why it was ever considered great.

[DERBRUCER]

I think I found a new definition of ironic:

Or as Doris would warble "Your Secret Loves No Secret Anymore".

[DERBRUCER]

As I've written MANY times (and which I'm sure you've read, der Brucer

AAAH - another shot through the heart!

der Brucer

[DERBRUCER]

A reflexion on yesterday's  DC Metro oops:

(From Chuck Muth's DC COnfidentila Newletter)

WHAT ARE YOU GONNA BELIEVE: WHAT YOU SEE OR WHAT WE TELL YOU?

A runaway Washington, DC, subway train smashed into the back of another, injuring 20 people on Thursday.  To which a subway spokespinner said, “We know that there have been a series of situations in the last few months that have happened on Metro, but we want to assure our customers that the rail system (is) safe.”

Guess we now know where Baghdad Bob ended up, huh?

der Brucer (see, Jose, it's safe to go back!)

[JoseSPiano]

Good Morning!

What a great topic of the day!  Unfortunately, due to time constraints - yes, I slept in again this morning (but I'm not necessarily running late..yet) - I don't have time right now to compose and post my list.  Ah, well...

But after reading the lists posted so far.. Ditto.

But speaking of over-rated...

BK - Maybe you saw it in my "absence", but have you seen THE TEN COMMANDMENTS yet?  *Word on the street is if you happen to buy the $20 cheap seat, BUT come to the theatre right before the curtain, the ushers automatically upgrade you to the orchestra section, so...  -And, apparently, some religious goods shop are giving away free tickets with any purchase.  

OK - Gotta get ready to head in to the theatre... Good Richie Vibes...

Laters

[Jrand73]

LOL.

Though I dissed the set - MAKE ROOM FOR DADDY has some terrific guest stars including Dean Martin, Dinah Shore, and Judy Canova!

Canova does a bit of what must have been her nightclub act.  She yodels Reveille, does some comic songs, and sings a wonderful ballad!

Also Richard Beymer, Tommy Ivo, Eileen Janssen, Denise Alexander, and Richard Deacon.

William Demarest plays Kathy's father and of course Hans Conreid as the MOST irritating character I ever saw on TV - Uncle Tanoose!  And strangely, Conreid as a completely different character, an actor who coaches Terry (Sherry Jackson) in Shakespeare.

Marjorie Lord (in clothes by Emeson's and later, Bullock's) does a wild "Put the Blame on Mame".  She is so beautiful.  Perfectly coiffed and dressed - of course she is more California than New York, but it's a fun set....deficient though it may be.  Fans will appreciate it, despite its shortcomings.  Rusty Hamer and Angela Cartwright can still make me laugh.  And Danny's spit takes are classic!

[Jrand73]

Ah yes RICHIE RICHIE RICHIE vibes for DRJOSE'S Chorus Line....gimme the ball gimme the ball gimme the ball!

[DERBRUCER]

Today's Battlefield Report:

WHAT TO DO ABOUT SNARLIN’ ARLEN

Sen. Arlen Specter was quoted in an Associated Press story on Wednesday “warning” President Bush not to send conservative judges his way once he takes over as Chairman of the Judiciary Committee.  Specter only wants to see “moderate” judges receive presidential appointments.

Well, this set off a firestorm of outrage among the conservative grassroots organizations.  By Thursday afternoon, Snarlin’ Arlen was revising and extending his remarks, maintaining, with a straight face, that he had not issued any such warning to the White House.  Heck, he was just trying to be helpful and respectful.  

Of course, no one with an IQ above room temperature bought that. They know that once Specter is officially installed as Chairman, he’ll make good on the threat he now says he didn’t make.

The question is, do the conservative Republicans in the Senate have the testosterone to block Specter from ascending to throne before it’s too late?  They haven’t shown any in the past, but maybe Tuesday’s election results gave ‘em a shot of courage.  We’ll see...but I wouldn’t bet the farm on it.

(above extracted from DC Confidential Newsletter)

Keep your eye on this fight - it may will be a harbinger of things to come.

der Brucer

[td]

I saw a beautiful production of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA which featured the divine Leigh Beery and Don Stewart (Rosabella & Joe), which I liked so much on opening night, I returned five times during its run.  It works.  I don't know how I could have left it off (or Loesser off the list(s), but, there you go.  Incidentally, I am not fond of the 2  piano version, but remember a PBS showing of FELLA which was most enjoyable).

As for PARADE.  Well, I knew the Leo Frank story from such films as THEY WON'T FORGET and THE MURDER OF MARY PHAGAN.  I saw the first national tour without benefit of having heard the score prior to the viewing and was moved to tears several times.  I found no troubles at all with the score, and supposedly some book changes had been made prior to the tour - though there were still a couple of book problems.  
Even after having read AND THE DEAD SHALL RISE, Steve Oney's magnficent non-fiction, well researched book on the subject, I don't think that PARADE deals in stereotypes.

[DERBRUCER]

Though I dissed the set - MAKE ROOM FOR DADDY has some terrific guest stars including Dean Martin, Dinah Shore, and Judy Canova!

Canova does a bit of what must have been her nightclub act.  She yodels Reveille, does some comic songs, and sings a wonderful ballad!

Back before our family entertainment center had a CRT, Miss Canova - Queen of Corn - the Jenny Lind of the Ozarks  was a favorite of mine.

der Brucer

[td]

Ah, Judy Canova doing "The Lady in Red," great number right up there with any of Virgina O'Brien's numbers.

Oh, and film musicals (orginal):
SINGIN' IN THE RAIN
THE BAND WAGON
THE PIRATE
THE HARVEY GIRLS
MARY POPPINS

(adapted):
THE SOUND OF MUSIC
KISS ME, KATE
LI'L ABNER
SILK STOCKINGS
FUNNY GIRL
FINIAN'S RAINBOW

[elmore3003]

As for PARADE.  Well, I knew the Leo Frank story from such films as THEY WON'T FORGET and THE MURDER OF MARY PHAGAN.  I saw the first national tour without benefit of having heard the score prior to the viewing and was moved to tears several times.  I found no troubles at all with the score, and supposedly some book changes had been made prior to the tour - though there were still a couple of book problems.  
Even after having read AND THE DEAD SHALL RISE, Steve Oney's magnficent non-fiction, well researched book on the subject, I don't think that PARADE deals in stereotypes.

I would agree with you, DRtd.  I went into Lincoln Center expecting to hate PARADE, and it moved me to tears several times.  I thought it was a wonderfully assembled and moving piece with an amazing cast.  

[td]

Well, DRelmore, after a comment such as that, I might just HAVE to give RENT a chance.  . .well, maybe next year.  (Ah! an A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC reference!)

Right now, RENT would be IMHO, the most over rated musical.

[DERBRUCER]

A titilating frivolity for today.

WARNING DANGEROUS DOUBLE-ENTENDRES AHEAD

THOSE EASILY OFFENDED MIGHT STILL ENJOY

TEENAGERS BEWARE - THIS IS INAPPROPRIATE JUVENILLE HUMOR

In pharmacology, all drugs have two names - a trade name and a generic
name. For example, the trade name of Tylenol is acetaminophen. Aleve is known as naproxen, Amoxil is amoxicillin, and Advil is ibuprofen.

The FDA has been looking for a generic name for Viagra. After
consideration by a team of government experts, it recently announced it has settled on the generic name of mycoxafloppin.

Also considered were mycoxafailin, mydixadrupin, mydixarizin, mydixadud, dixafix, and of course ibepokin.

Pfizer Corp. is making an announcement today that Viagra will soon be available in liquid form and will be marketed by Pepsi Cola as a power beverage suitable for use as a mixer.

Pepsi's proposed ad campaign claims it will now be possible for a man to literally pour himself a stiff one.

Obviously we can no longer call this a soft drink. This additive gives new meaning to the names of cocktails, highballs and just a good old fashioned stiff drink. Pepsi will market the new concoction by the name of Mount & Do.

I am der Brucer and I disapprove of this post

[George]

SOME of my favorite musicals that are based only on recordings:
Lucky Stiff
Mack and Mabel
A New Brain
Pacific Overtures
Ragtime
Ruthless!

15 of my favorite musicals that I have actually seen or been in(*)
(I couldn't stop at just 10):
1776
Baby
Company
A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum*
Gypsy(*)
Into the Woods
Little Shop of Horrors
March of the Falsettos/Falsettoland/Falsettos
Once on This Island
A Rock 'n' Roll Twelfth Night (Olympia production)
The Rocky Horror Show
She Loves Me
The Spitfire Grill
Sunday In the Park With George
Sweeny Todd

And just SOME of my favorite composers (mostly) and lyricists:
Cy Coleman
William Finn
Stephen Flaherty/Lynne Ahrens
Jerry Herman
John Kander/Fred Ebb
Andrew Lloyd Webber
Frank Loesser
Alan Menken
Stephen Schwartz
David Shire/Richard Maltby Jr.
Stephen Sondheim
and too many others to mention

[Charles Pogue]

Ben reminded me of another favourite movie which would push my two in tenth slot to eleven.  I love SHE LOVES ME!  The album has been a favourite of mine for years.  Finally got to see it in London a few years back with the lovely Ruthie Henshall.  Generally very nice, the strangest thing about it, however, was the British cast was using American accents when the musical's set in Hungary.  Go figure.

[Charles Pogue]

All my choices are not limited to whether I've actually seen the musical on stage (After all, who here has seen KEAN?), though I have seen many, if not most, in some form or another, but rather  how often I drag the album out for a listen.

[Jennifer]

My overrated show is Kiss of the Spider Woman.

I am also not a fan of Blood Brothers.

Other overrated shows have been mentioned as well, including:
Les Miz
Cats
Miss Saigon
The Lion King

I like almost every show you hate!

I really like Kiss of the Spider Woman as I mentioned yesterday.  Perhaps it's because it is one of the first big touring productions I'd ever seen.  I think seeing Chita Rivera do this show, sparked my love for musical theatre.

I like Les Miz.

I'm not crazy about Cats.  But it was the first show I ever saw.

I love Miss Saigon.

And I also really liked The Lion King.

[Charles Pogue]

Over-rated for me would probably be Jerry Herman.  Aside from a few isolated songs here and there, I don't much care for his music or his shows...HELLO,DOLLY, MAME, blecch!  MACK & MABEL a couple of nice numbers and a couple of good performers, then who cares...DEAR WORLD, can't get past the title number.  LA CAGE AUX FOLLE, zzzzzzzz.  None of the versions, musical or non, have been as good as the initial French film...and I wasn't all that bowled over by it.

I also get the suspicion that Jerry Herman is not a nice man.  I was reminded when, in the recent Broadway musical doc, they showed his catty Tony acceptance speech when his show beat SUNDAY IN THE PARK, talk about a poor winner...his ungracious, tatty speech was an ill-disguised (perhaps intentinonally ill-disguised) slam at Sondheim.  Sondheim's music to me is much more melodic and moving than Herman's can ever hope to be...especially with every show having a chorus show-stopper that always sounds identical to the grating Hello, Dolly!

[Jennifer]

The Amazing Race 6 starts in 11 days!

http://www.tvrules.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6328&mode=&order=0&thold=0

[Jennifer]

Some of my favorite composers/lyricists:

Sondheim
Kander/Ebb
Rodgers/Hammerstein
Ahrens/Flaherty
Bock and Harnick
Schwartz

Some of my favorite musicals:

She Loves Me
Sweeney Todd
Into the Woods
Cabaret
Miss Saigon
A Little Night Music
Rent
Notre Dame De Paris