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Author Topic: I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH  (Read 18014 times)

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bk

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I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« on: November 17, 2004, 11:59:53 PM »

Well, you've read the notes, you've gotten an impression of the notes, and now it is time to post whilst doing an impression of the cows coming home.  To it, I say.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2004, 12:02:02 AM by bk »
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S. Woody White

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2004, 12:32:26 AM »

My hunch is that BK's impression of his nose would only work when he's had a snootfull, which isn't his style.

I'm at a loss when it comes to the TOD, because I'm also at a loss when it comes to the great films noir.  I'm simply not that familar with the genre.

That said, the film noir-styled musical City of Angels has several great numbers in it, and a few that work well out of the show's context.  "With Every Breath I Take" is a traditional torch song, but "You Can Always Count On Me" and "What You Don't Know About Women" would also be good candidates, especially since they would make for an upbeat change of pace.  
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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2004, 12:48:38 AM »

Thinking on one of yesterday's discussions, on how the composer of an opera is more likely to also be it's orchestrator than his musical comedy/play counterpart, I've come to the conclusion that this isn't because of a lack of skill on the mc/p composer's part, but more because of a time factor.  A lot of compositional work is done on a Broadway (or Broadway-style) musical during tryouts, with the show already mounted but in need of correction.  The composer simply doesn't have the time to invent new melodies and put together the new charts.

Compare this with the situation facing the composer of an opera.  This composer has been sitting alone in a room, finishes his work in however long a period it takes(including orchestrations), and delivers the work complete.  (And it's nifty how "opera" means "work," isn't it!)  Any corrections take place during rehearsals, but basically what has been turned in as the score is what gets on the stage.  There is no "tryout" period; the work is given it's world premiere and that's that.  So the opera composer is dealing with a vastly different time situation.

This suggests that the Broadway musical is a more colaborative art, and rightly so.  Operas are usually known only as works of the composer.  Musicals are known as the work of the composer, the lyricist (assuming that's a different person), and the book writer (assuming that again is a different person).  

In both cases, if the orchestrator is another different person, his (or her) contribution is generally ignored.   :-\
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Jrand73

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2004, 12:59:24 AM »

Oh my....hmmmmmmm......Abbe Lane does a great little song called "One At a Time" in the film noir CHICAGO SYNDICATE.

I also like a lot of the songs Jane Russell did in her movies with Robert Mitchum....especially one song called, I think, "San Berdoo."

Hmmmmmm.....lots of night clubs in noir movies.....I must think about some others.  
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elmore3003

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2004, 03:52:24 AM »

My hunch is that BK's impression of his nose would only work when he's had a snootfull, which isn't his style.

SWW, LOL!  :D ;D :D

So, I'm sitting here at 6:55 and knowing senility has landed.  I can think of only one noir song, "Laura," and I'm certain there are others, most likely ones I'm truly fond of like "Hush, Hush, Sweet Charlotte," but I wouldn't consider it noir.  Southern Gothic, yes.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2004, 03:52:56 AM by elmore3003 »
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elmore3003

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2004, 04:12:18 AM »


Compare this with the situation facing the composer of an opera.  This composer has been sitting alone in a room, finishes his work in however long a period it takes(including orchestrations), and delivers the work complete.  (And it's nifty how "opera" means "work," isn't it!)  Any corrections take place during rehearsals, but basically what has been turned in as the score is what gets on the stage.  There is no "tryout" period; the work is given it's world premiere and that's that.  So the opera composer is dealing with a vastly different time situation.


Actually, DRSWW, there are several famous cases of opera revisions after the first performances:  Verdi's overhauls of DON CARLOS and MACBETH, Puccini's several attempts to finalize MADAMA BUTTERFLY.  I believe there are two endings, brief but different, for HANSEL UND GRETEL.   There've now been attempts to "fix" CARMEN on the grounds that Bizet was forced against his will to alter it for the Opera Comique, and the alterations Mozart himself made to his operas toi accommodate different singers accounts for DON GIOVANNI being for the past 200 years a conflation of the Vienna and Prague versions as well as several big variants in THE MARRIAGE OF FIGARO.

Offenbach made his cuts and alterations after the piece was running, like Gilbert & Sullivan, since there was no concept then of  "tryout performances."  There was a wonderful book published in the 1960s called THE OPENING NIGHT GILBERT & SULLIVAN that published the opening night libretti before the changes were made.   There have been, since 1960, at least three attempts to fix THE TALES OF HOFFMANN that I know of (two of them now published), but since Offenbach died before an audience ever saw the opera. we'll never know what he would have considered definitive.

You are right, though, about a musical in tryouts.  When a show like CANDIDE in 1956 goes through a lot of rewrites in Boston, and this is drastic compared to some shows where little was done out of town, the composer has to keep writing new songs or adjustments, confer with director, Musical Director, etc.   There's no time to sit in a room, orchestrate, and be certain the copyists are on schedule.   It takes me around 20-30 minutes to score a page (4 measures) of music, depending how dense it is and how large the orchestra, so that would be around 8-10 hours to score an 80 m. (20 pages) song.  Richard Rodgers could have written the song in 20 minutes to a couple of hours, depending on how difficult the piano accompaniment was, and composers use a lpot of shorthand in their manuscripts, as do I when I can get away with it.
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elmore3003

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2004, 04:21:54 AM »

Steve Sondheim says an opera is a piece performed in an opera house, but I don't totally agree with him:  I thought SWEENEY TODD was a great opera the first day I saw it at the Uris Theatre.  I don't consider THE MEDIUM and THE TELEPHONE musicals because they opened for a run at a Broadway theatre.  DIE FLEDERMAUS is another problem:  as ROSALINDA it was a big Broadway hit, with Miss Shelly Winters in a secondary role, but as DIE FLEDERMAUS it hasn't left the opera houses since Mahler conducted it at the Vienna Opera.  THE MAGIC FLUTE opened in a popular Viennese theatre, as a singspiel, and I'd love to see it performed as a bizarre musical comedy rather than a charming opera with spoken dialogue.  

I find the whole megillah too amorphous to tie it down with rules or names like musical theatre and opera.  To me, it's all musical theatre - zarzuela, singspiel, ballad opera, operetta, opera, musical play, musical comedy - and it's either done well or badly.  End of soapbox for today!
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Michael

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2004, 04:57:43 AM »

I'll second the song "laura" but refresh my memory is it actually sung in the film or was it written after the film came out?
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Michael

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2004, 05:09:10 AM »

How Little We Know or Hong Kong Blues from  Have or Have Not
And Her Tears Flowed Like Wine from the Big Sleep
Too Marvelous For Words from Dark Passage
Moanin' Low from Key Largo
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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2004, 05:09:24 AM »

I find the whole megillah too amorphous to tie it down with rules or names like musical theatre and opera.  To me, it's all musical theatre - zarzuela, singspiel, ballad opera, operetta, opera, musical play, musical comedy - and it's either done well or badly.  End of soapbox for today!
You'ld like how I organize that part of our CD collection: If it's a work done for the theater, it's in alpha order by title.  Makes the shows a lot easier for me to locate.
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td

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2004, 05:51:43 AM »

Well, I  think that our very own BK should write MORE lyrics to the theme from CHINATOWN.

"Why Don't You Do Right?" as sung in WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT is one of my favorites.
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Noel

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2004, 06:02:40 AM »

Thinking on one of yesterday's discussions, on how the composer of an opera is more likely to also be it's orchestrator than his musical comedy/play counterpart, I've come to the conclusion that this isn't because of a lack of skill on the mc/p composer's part, but more because of a time factor.  A lot of compositional work is done on a Broadway (or Broadway-style) musical during tryouts, with the show already mounted but in need of correction.  The composer simply doesn't have the time to invent new melodies and put together the new charts.

Compare this with the situation facing the composer of an opera.  This composer has been sitting alone in a room, finishes his work in however long a period it takes(including orchestrations), and delivers the work complete.  (And it's nifty how "opera" means "work," isn't it!)  Any corrections take place during rehearsals, but basically what has been turned in as the score is what gets on the stage.  There is no "tryout" period; the work is given it's world premiere and that's that.  So the opera composer is dealing with a vastly different time situation.

This suggests that the Broadway musical is a more colaborative art, and rightly so.  Operas are usually known only as works of the composer.  Musicals are known as the work of the composer, the lyricist (assuming that's a different person), and the book writer (assuming that again is a different person).  

In both cases, if the orchestrator is another different person, his (or her) contribution is generally ignored.   :-\

You're quite correct, and, inadvertantly, we've begun a list of "symptoms" that tell us whether a show's an opera or a musical.  Why did I call them "symptoms?"  Well, in a sense, we're like doctors.  A symptom can usually mean one thing, but there are exceptions.  A doctor will look at a whole set of symptoms before making a diagnosis.

So, so far, we've got my statement that it's exceedingly rare for composers of musicals to do their own orchestration.

BK's close personal friend Mr. Stephen Sondheim said an opera is a work to be performed in an opera house, and DR Elmore argued with him.

That operas usually have one big opening, having not played for preview audiences, while musicals are tinkered with, in front of audiences, for years before their openings.

Quote
Operas are usually known only as works of the composer.  Musicals are known as the work of the composer, the lyricist (assuming that's a different person), and the book writer

I found this answer to someone who asked whether Les Mis is an opera:
Quote
Susan,
     This point can be confusing, for Les Miserables does have a few things in common with operas.  Let me point out some of the things that make it NOT an
opera:

1. The composer didn't do the orchestrations

2. It doesn't require, and wasn't conceived for, operatic singing.  True, it's difficult to sing, but the voices it has been cast with use "pop" inflections, so, I guess, it could be called a pop opera.

3. It wasn't conceived of for the opera stage.  There are a zillion subtle differences between operas and musicals in how the musicianship is handled.

4. Operas, for more than a century, have a level of musical complexity and sophistication that Les Miserables lacks, which is not to say the music isn't
good, beautiful or effective.

5. An opera is, for the most part, a musical expression by the composer, and the composer is always more important than the librettist.  Musicals are
theatrical expressions in which all collaborators must be treated as equals, equally important.

Finally, the lack of dialogue means nothing.  Plenty of wonderful operas contain a lot of spoken dialogue.  Some musicals contain no dialogue, but they're usually pretty dull.

A good noir song: Put the Blame on Mame (Gilda)
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Dan (the Man)

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2004, 06:17:04 AM »

DR Michael Shayne has already mentioned my particular film noir song--"And Her Tears Flowed Like Wine" from The Big Sleep.  What a terrific scene--in the middle of an already complicated case, Bogie comes upon Bacall oozing even more self-confidence than she's previously shown to him, casually tossing off this song like it was last year's corn flakes, in an illegal gambling club in the sticks.  It's almost like Alice wondering into the Mad Hatter's tea party.  But while Bogie is taken aback for only a moment, it's enough for him (and the movie audience) to fall even deeper for this dame.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2004, 06:27:09 AM by Dan (the Man) »
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Noel

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2004, 06:24:40 AM »

I don't know that there's a lot of singing in films noir, but there are songs from musicals that strike me as very noir-ish:

My Time of Day     from Guys and Dolls
While the City Sleeps    from Golden Boy
and there must be something in Sweet Smell of Success
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Noel

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2004, 06:30:32 AM »

So, how do these symptoms apply to Sweeney Todd?

Its composer-lyricists states it's not an opera.

The orchestration is by Jonathan Tunick.

The words are equally (if not more) important as the tunes.

It does not require operatic voices - Angela Lansbury and Len Cariou are nobody's idea of opera singers.

It played 8 shows a week at the Uris Theatre (not an opera house), opening after a period of previews.

It requires excellent acting.

Now, I for one, LOVE it when I see an opera where the acting is excellent, and this is obviously an objective term.  But there are plenty of opera fans who are perfectly happy to see an opera beautifully sung but insufficiently acted.  That's because opera fans love the sound of a beautiful voice.  Musical fans love a well-acted performance, which is why such un-lovely-voiced people as Carol Channing, Jackie Gleason, Zero Mostel and Shirley Booth could be such great stars of the Broadway musical stage.
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Stuart

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2004, 06:44:22 AM »

Some authors at this here site should be pleased with the following link:


http://www.playbill.com/news/article/89640.html

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2004, 07:15:55 AM »

I cannot think of any songs from film noir...well, of course there are many songs in Bollywood film noir...I guess MURDER IN THE BLUE ROOM (1944) isn't really film noir, but it could pass and it has some nifty songs...like BOOGIE WOOGIE BOOGIE MAN, for instance.
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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2004, 07:25:47 AM »

Good Morning!

Of course, the one day this week I finally wake up "early", it's gray, overcast and there's a chance of showers all day.  -Well, it's not that gray outside, but all the weather reports have called the air "unstable" today.  So, we shall see...

"Laura" is the only song that comes to mind right now.  Just such a great tune, great harmonies.  And, actually, the other night, there was a great clip of Errol Garner and his trio playing the tune.  Quite wonderful playing.

Hmm... The sun is now shining through the windows here in my living room... hmm...
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bk

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2004, 07:42:48 AM »

Great song choices already.  I think there was a song in Kiss Me Deadly sung by Nat King Cole.  I know there's a song in The Blue Gardenia also sung by Nat, I think.  Gun Crazy's theme has lyrics somewhere in the film, doesn't it?  I also think doing a couple of stage songs would be cool - City of Angels and Sweet Smell are both good choices for that.  
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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2004, 07:44:49 AM »

Mr. Jason Graae has decided to do a show at a small cabaret on 8th Avenue in New York City. Here's a link to the Playbill article on Coup de Graae

http://www.playbill.com/news/article/89663.html
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Stuart

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2004, 07:55:47 AM »

Yes, forgot to mention earlier that my two choices "Laura" and "Put the Blame on Mame" we already mentioned.

Other than those I don't know much from film noir.
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Matt H.

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2004, 07:56:41 AM »

Chicago singer/pianist Audrey Morris recorded an album about a decade ago called FILM NOIR, and here are the contents:

"I'd Rather Have the Blues Than What I've Got" (KISS ME DEADLY)

"I've Heard That Song Before" (FAREWELL MY LOVELY)

"Don't Call It Love" (I WALK ALONE)

"I Can't Believe That You're in Love with Me" (DETOUR)

"Mad About You" (GUN CRAZY)

"A Lovely Way to Spend an Evening" (THE RACKET)

"Slowly" (FALLEN ANGEL)

"Ace in the Hole" (NAKED ALIBI)

"Again" (ROAD HOUSE)

"Blue Gardenia" (THE BLUE GARDENIA)

"I Hadn't Anyone 'Til You" (IN A LONELY PLACE)

"Spring Will Be a Little Late This Year" (CHRISTMAS HOLIDAY)

"Memphis in June" (JOHNNY ANGEL)

"Body and Soul" (BODY AND SOUL)

"He's Funny That Way" (THE POSTMAN ALWAYS RINGS TWICE)

"Reach for Tomorrow" (LET NO MAN WRITE MY EPITAPH)
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Matt H.

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2004, 07:59:30 AM »

Seems like Ava Gardner sang songs (dubbed by Eileen Wilson) in THE HUCKSTERS and THE KILLERS, but I can't remember what they were. Haven't seen either film in a long time.
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S. Woody White

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2004, 08:17:35 AM »

Mr. Jason Graae has decided to do a show at a small cabaret on 8th Avenue in New York City. Here's a link to the Playbill article on Coup de Graae

http://www.playbill.com/news/article/89663.html
Great!  Now, since he'll be in town, how do we get him to the Writer's Block reading/signing?
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There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, and the sea's asleep, and the rivers dream; people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice, somewhere else the tea's getting cold. Come on, Ace. We've got work to do.

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2004, 08:26:41 AM »

Jason has promised he'll try to make the Writer's Block signing.  Oh, and Jrand's review now contains no spoilers.
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Ron Pulliam

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2004, 08:42:43 AM »

The lyritcs to "Laura" were added after the film was released.  No vocal version of the song was ever added to the film.
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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2004, 08:54:25 AM »

I just received the following in an E-mail that was forwarded to me.  Though I usually loathe those lists of jokes and whatnot that are passed around like so many cold germs at this time of year, I thought that this group in particular may enjoy these:

Actual Analogies and Metaphors Found in High School Essays.

1. Her face was a perfect oval, like a circle that had its two sides gently compressed by a Thigh Master

2. His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like  underpants in a dryer without Cling Free.

3. He spoke with the wisdom that can only come from experience,  like a  guy who went blind because he looked at a solar eclipse without one of  those boxes with a pinhole in it and now goes around the country  speaking at high schools about the dangers of looking at a solar eclipse   without one of those boxes witha pinhole in it.

4. She grew on him like she was a colony of E. coli and he was  room-temperature Canadian beef.

5. She had a deep, throaty, genuine laugh, like that sound a dog makes  just before it throws up.

6. Her vocabulary was as bad as, like, whatever.

7. He was as tall as a six-foot-three-inch tree.

8. The revelation that his marriage of 30 years had disintegrated  because of his wife's infidelity came as a rude shock, like a surcharge  at a formerly surcharge-free ATM.

9. The little boat gently drifted across the pond exactly the way a  bowling ball wouldn't.

10. McBride fell 12 stories, hitting the pavement like a Hefty bag  filled with vegetable soup.

11. From the attic came an unearthly howl. The whole scene had an eerie,  surreal quality, like when you're on vacation in another city and  Jeopardy comes on at 7:00 p.m. instead of 7:30.

12. Her hair glistened in the rain like a nose hair after a sneeze.

13. The hailstones leaped from the pavement, just like maggots  when you  fry them in hot grease.

14. Long separated by cruel fate, the star-crossed lovers raced across  the grassy field toward each other like two freight trains, one having  left Cleveland at 6:36 p.m. traveling at 55 mph, the other from Topeka  at 4:19 p.m. at a speed of 35 mph.

15. They lived in a typical suburban neighborhood with picket fences  that resembled Nancy Kerrigan's teeth.

16. John and Mary had never met. They were like two hummingbirds who had  also never met.

17. He fell for her like his heart was a mob informant and she was the  East River.

18. Even in his last years, Grandpappy had a mind like a steel trap,  only one that had been left out so long, it had rusted shut.

19. Shots rang out, as shots are wont to do.

20. The plan was simple, like my brother-in-law Phil. But unlike Phil,   this plan just might work.

21. The young fighter had a hungry look, the kind you get from not  eating for a while.

22. He was as lame as a duck. Not the metaphorical lame duck, either,  but a real duck that was actually lame. Maybe from stepping on a land  mine or something.

23. The ballerina rose gracefully en pointe and extended one slender leg  behind her, like a dog at a fire hydrant.

24. It was an American tradition, like fathers chasing kids around with  power tools.

25. He was deeply in love. When she spoke, he thought he heard bells, as  if she were a garbage truck backing up.

26. Her eyes were like limpid pools, only they had forgotten to put in  any pH cleanser.

27. She walked into my office like a centipede with 98 missing legs.

28. It hurt the way your tongue hurts after you accidentally staple it  to a wall.
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Ginny

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2004, 09:23:49 AM »

Actual Analogies and Metaphors Found in High School Essays.


DRStuart - Loved these analogies & metaphors - great lunchtime laughs.

Fellow readers, my copy of Writer's Block arrived yesterday, too, and I'm looking forward to reading it this weekend.  Tonight my book group meets to discussReading Lolita in Tehran and I just learned that we'll have a guest with us who taught English as a second-language in Iran in the early '70s.
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"Each of us lives with, and in and out of, contradiction.  Everything is salvageable.  There is nothing we cannot learn from."  --Sr. Mary Ellen Dougherty

Matt H.

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2004, 09:26:42 AM »

Speaking of FILM NOIR, I haven't finshed watching the films in that excellent boxed DVD set. Still haven't gotten to THE ASPHALT JUNGLE or GUN CRAZY.
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If at first you don't succeed, that's about average for me.

Jason

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Re:I'D LIKE TO DO AN IMPRESSION OF MY TOOTH
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2004, 09:39:07 AM »

DR Jane: I have big, big plans for my birthday tomorrow - I'm working 9:30-5:30 at MTI and 7:00-12:30 (AIDA) at the Met. Sounds like a heck of a party, huh?

DR Sandra: Right back atcha. How ya been? How's school? Are you still the Bookworm champion?

DR Laura: Hi! You'd be tickled to know that Ms. Judy Kaye (the lady with whom I "sang" on JEEPERS CREEPERS) is playing the ever-fabulous Florence Foster Jenkins in an off-Broadway play. I'm going to see it so I can tell you all about it! :-)
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