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Author Topic: THE FLOOR MEN  (Read 29459 times)

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Ron Pulliam

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #90 on: March 14, 2005, 10:21:00 AM »

Devil's advocate time:

Aren't songs by famous composers "re"arranged because someone thinks they should be sung a different way, or because an "interpreter" (i.e. singer) isn't comfortable with the key the song is written in?

Isn't that the same thing a director is doing when his actor of choice would be more comfortable with the role being adapted to his "key"?

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George

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #91 on: March 14, 2005, 10:29:55 AM »

And,no, in the golden era of flm.  There was no willy-nilly changing of script.  They may have still used writers at times like tissue paper, but once that script was set, it was set.  And directors were hred hands just like wrters.  None of this auteur pretension.

And lyric writing, also.  I have a CD compilation (commercially released, not my own) called "Can't Help Lovin' Dat Man" that has songs from the 1920s and 1930s originally written to be sung by women, but recorded by men...without changing any of the lyrics!  It's not that they were a bunch of gay men who came out, but the laws of the time wouldn't allow ANY changing of the lyrics...not even the gender.  They couldn't change "he" to "she" or vice versa.  But these performers (band with singers, usually) wanted to record the songs because they were popular songs of the day, so they just recorded them as they were written.  It's a pretty cool compilation.  It's out of print now, but you can click HERE to see a copy that's available on eBay.
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Jrand74

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #92 on: March 14, 2005, 10:53:37 AM »

If a director and an actor have the change the key of the writing, I think they must have missed the writer's original point.

And if they have to change the key, why was the actor cast?  I would think you would want an actor to serve the script rather than the other way around.  Although I know that's not the way it works.
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MBarnum

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #93 on: March 14, 2005, 10:59:47 AM »


And,no, in the golden era of flm.  There was no willy-nilly changing of script.  They may have still used writers at times like tissue paper, but once that script was set, it was set.  And directors were hred hands just like wrters.  None of this auteur pretension.

In my interview with actress Diana Darrin, during the filming of 20th Century Fox's THE BROKEN LAND (1962) she told me that the ending of the film was simply not working and so they (the director and the lead actors Robert Sampson, Jack Nicholson, Kent Taylor, and herself) spent most of the night rewriting that section of the script. However, she did make sure that I knew that they had the writer's permission to do so...and I doubt there was any auteur pretension involved in this film. LOL! (Actually, it really is a very good western).

And I don't know what years you are including in "the Golden Era," so maybe 1962 isn't part of that,  but I am guessing this was not a first in films. But it does sound like they had some respect for the writer in this case
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Ron Pulliam

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #94 on: March 14, 2005, 11:03:11 AM »

If a director and an actor have the change the key of the writing, I think they must have missed the writer's original point.

And if they have to change the key, why was the actor cast?  I would think you would want an actor to serve the script rather than the other way around.  Although I know that's not the way it works.

Okay....but shouldn't the same thing be said about singers, then?

If a singer cannot do justice to a song without changing the key or arrangement, should the singer simply NOT sing the song?

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S. Woody White

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #95 on: March 14, 2005, 11:14:07 AM »

Speaking of "Lion Tamer," I've got sitting on my to-watch DVD shelf (more like a cabinet), the DVD of THE MAGIC SHOW that I've never watched. I need to put that in at some point this week.
Trust me, you can wait a little longer.  It's shoddy, and some of the numbers have been replaced with lesser material.  Doug Henning was better represented by his television specials.
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vixmom

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #96 on: March 14, 2005, 11:17:19 AM »

Okay....but shouldn't the same thing be said about singers, then?

If a singer cannot do justice to a song without changing the key or arrangement, should the singer simply NOT sing the song?



By these standards, I should never sing any song, including Happy Birthday... of course most people say that anyway, no matter how low their standards
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Charles Pogue

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #97 on: March 14, 2005, 11:19:51 AM »

Der Brucer, I refer you to Rudy Behlmer's two fine books MEMO and Warners Bros Presents.  In Memo look at how Selznick rode herd on Hitchcock during REBECCA.  In the Warners Bros. book reading the memoes you can see if a director did not shoot scene 54A, some producer was down on on his butt...or even if he shot it badly.  Look at how many directors GONE WITH THE WIND had?  Even a great film like ADVENTURES OF ROBIN HOOD had two directors.  Directors in the thirties and forties (my definition of the Golden Age...the strong studio-controlled contract days) were rarely in on the development of the script or the prep of a film, nor were they involved in the post-production process they way they are now...The film went to the editing department and was put together there; the director went on to his next "directing" gig.  Directors, just like writers, went from assignment to assignment and didn't oversee a film from genesis to opening night.  Producers were the force then and rode herd on the film.  

It wasn't until the fifties and the break-up of the studio system (oddly enough, concurrent with the "auteur myth" from Europe.  I always say the directors embraced the auteur myth and fooled the businessmen taking over the studios who didn't know any better that it was the natural order of things...Jack Warner or Sam Goldwyn or Louis Mayer would've just laugh at them) that directors and actors started becoming the engines of films.  

In the thirties and forties, if a director wanted to be a force, he also produced (like Capra did, I believe).  And if they wanted to edit their film, they learned to "cut in the camera" like Ford, so that there was only one viable way to put the thing together.

I would also refer you to Views from a Window: Conversations with Gore Vidal, Edited by Robert J. Stanton and Gore Vidal, Lyle Stuart books, 1980.  Check out the section entitled Artists and Barbarians and read Mr. Vidal's trenchent and true remarks (as well as vastly amusing) remarks about the film industry and directors in particular and what frauds he finds them.  He calls them plagarists.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2005, 11:25:54 AM by Charles Pogue »
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vixmom

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #98 on: March 14, 2005, 11:19:58 AM »

I am eating a grilled muenster and bacon on rye bread sandwich, witha lovely dill pickle and Wise "Deli Kettle Cooked " chips on the side.  This was exotic as I gcould get with the limited resources of the building's cafeteria.

Oh, DR Sandra, no Cherry Coke, so I had to settle for Dr. Pepper
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S. Woody White

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #99 on: March 14, 2005, 11:20:00 AM »

Yesterday I was out with DH, my folks and the Vixter at her All County Music Festival...
...I am sorry it seems everything I post lately seems to be a rant and a complaint... I'll try to find some more cheerful stuff to post later today.    
I suggest sending your rant to the local newspaper.
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Rodzinski

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #100 on: March 14, 2005, 11:22:00 AM »

Read Jimmy Cagney's autobiography and he clearly states that he and actors of his day were re-writing what they considered hack writing all the time back in the day.
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Charles Pogue

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #101 on: March 14, 2005, 11:27:22 AM »

Changing a line here and there on the set is not "re-writing".
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Ron Pulliam

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #102 on: March 14, 2005, 11:33:08 AM »

One of my pet peeves, back when I was doing amateur theater, was folks putting lines into "their own words" because "they" wouldn't speak like the character they were portraying was written.

I once had the temerity to suggest a person try "acting" for a change instead of being himself, thus solving the problem of worrying about how "he" would never say something the way it was written.

Unfortunately, most directors would rather let an actor change his line than deal with the whining.

: )
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Stuart

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #103 on: March 14, 2005, 11:34:45 AM »

Stephen Schwartz favorites:

Day by Day
By My Side
On the Willows
Magic to Do
Corner of the Sky
Love Song
Morning Glow
Lion Tamer
West End Avenue
Meadowlark
Chanson
Gifts of Love
Where is the Warmth?
Fathers and Sons
Children of the Wind
Blame it on the Summer Night
Rags
I'm Not that Girl
Defying Gravity

I am sure I am missing a few, but that's the gist.

DR Ben: Where in Brooklyn was your shindig?
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Ben

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #104 on: March 14, 2005, 11:37:11 AM »

DR Stuart:

Way out (for me anyway) in Bay Ridge near the end of the R line (69th Avenue I believe) and then a 15 minute walk to the abode.
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Jrand74

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #105 on: March 14, 2005, 11:38:51 AM »

DR RLP - I can't speak to music.  I don't write music.  Are songs written to be sung in just specific keys and not others?  And I have heard a few songs done by singers that I wished had never been recorded.  I am NOT a fan of singers who go off on their own making "oohs" and "dahs" and "whee-ahs" in songs - which I guess includes many of the "Divine" jazz singers who regularly disregard and disrepect composers....bleh!

It has been my (limited) experience that an actor or director wants changes that fit his own particular agenda or ego rather than the good of the piece.  
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S. Woody White

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #106 on: March 14, 2005, 11:39:47 AM »

Wall Man is done.
This sounds like a song.  Something along the lines of "Blow High, Blow Low."
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Rodzinski

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #107 on: March 14, 2005, 11:46:02 AM »

Changing a line here and there on the set is not "re-writing".

The writer in me says that depends on where the "here and there" are. The point is, the idea that actors held scripts as sacrosanct in the golden era is not fully correct. Not if Cagney on Cagney is to be believed.

When directing, adhering precisely to the written word is the exciting part of the challenge. I am a stickler for it. However, if you took all of the scenes out of all films that came about due to diretorial or even actor's changes, there would no doubt be a lot of great material missing from our cinema.  
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Jrand74

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #108 on: March 14, 2005, 11:52:57 AM »

Rosalind Russell not only wrote every movie she was ever in, she also wrote most of the music for WONDERFUL TOWN, and did all her own singing in GYPSY.
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bk

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #109 on: March 14, 2005, 11:54:39 AM »

Excellent discussion.

Changing the key of a song is not changing the NOTES - one is not rewriting the song musically or lyrically when one changes the key.  I detest singers who mess around with lyrics and yes that includes Sinatra when he'd do it, and it certainly includes Streisand when she's had the temerity to ask Sondheim and Rupert Holmes to change lyrics because she wants some other journey than that of the song as written.

And, as Pogue says, changing a line or two on the set is not rewriting.  

That's not to say that there aren't plenty of crappy scripts that need help, but studios shouldn't buy the crap in the first place and then spend millions having every word and plot point changed by others who frequently are no better.  All one has to do is look at most of the current tripe that comes out with six writers getting credit and you just scratch your head and say - six writers and THIS is what the finished product is like?
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Jrand74

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #110 on: March 14, 2005, 11:54:48 AM »

I can't speak for movies, either.  But (even back in the golden years) I think scripts came from many different sources and were subject to changes.  I have no doubt that actors and directors made changes in scenes - many instances ARE documented.  They were probably improvements, but then we never got to see or read what was improved upon.
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Jrand74

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #111 on: March 14, 2005, 11:55:53 AM »

The wonderful Claudette Colbert is on TCM tonight in TOVARICH and MIDNIGHT!!
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Charles Pogue

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #112 on: March 14, 2005, 11:56:43 AM »

The Lovely Wife sent me some more pics of November's London trip.  Here's me in the male vocalist section of the Dress Circle up on Monmouth Street just up from our flat.  I am holding a CD of Haines His Way:
« Last Edit: March 14, 2005, 12:02:52 PM by Charles Pogue »
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Charles Pogue

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #113 on: March 14, 2005, 11:58:23 AM »

Here's yours truly on the infamous Wobbly Bridge
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Charles Pogue

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #114 on: March 14, 2005, 11:59:26 AM »

Here's the National theatre at night:
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Charles Pogue

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #115 on: March 14, 2005, 12:01:12 PM »

Here's the London Eye ferris wheel taken from the Waterloo Bridge:
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Charles Pogue

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #116 on: March 14, 2005, 12:02:19 PM »

Just right of the london Eye you can see the Houses of Parliament and Big Ben on the other side of the Thames.
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S. Woody White

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #117 on: March 14, 2005, 12:02:47 PM »

I too am amazed at how everyone and his brother will tell the writer how to write.  They wouldn't think of telling the electrician how to do his job...or the scenic designer...or the prop guy...or cameraman...but no one has a problem telling the writer how to do his.
HUH???  The electrician might be fairly safe, but the scenic designer certainly has to draw up plans and sketches which have to be approved before the sets are built (tacitly, someone is telling him how to do his job).  Same is true of the prop guy, especially when the props are being designed for the show.  Cameraman?  What do you thing reshoots are for?  (Not to mention screening the dailies.)

Having someone else come in to re-do their work is something else again, but everyone gets their work critiqued, and not just in Hollywood.  I even got this when I was a file clerk, even much later in the game when someone would come along with this "bright new idea" that had been discarded years before the someone showed up.  Growing a thicker skin and learning not to take it all personally helps.
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There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, and the sea's asleep, and the rivers dream; people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice, somewhere else the tea's getting cold. Come on, Ace. We've got work to do.

Jrand74

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #118 on: March 14, 2005, 12:09:51 PM »

Please send details on how not to take it personally, DR SWW.  This trait has been a lifelong problem of mine.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2005, 12:10:12 PM by JRand54 »
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Jrand74

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Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #119 on: March 14, 2005, 12:10:52 PM »

Great London photos!  

How could DRJOSE have NOT taken his camera this trip?
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