Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 9   Go Down

Author Topic: THE FLOOR MEN  (Read 29445 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

vixmom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 75947
  • Commit random acts of kindness and sudden beauty
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #120 on: March 14, 2005, 12:12:40 PM »

DR RLP - I can't speak to music.  I don't write music.  Are songs written to be sung in just specific keys and not others?  And I have heard a few songs done by singers that I wished had never been recorded.  I am NOT a fan of singers who go off on their own making "oohs" and "dahs" and "whee-ahs" in songs - which I guess includes many of the "Divine" jazz singers who regularly disregard and disrepect composers....bleh!

It has been my (limited) experience that an actor or director wants changes that fit his own particular agenda or ego rather than the good of the piece.  

There was only one show I ever did where I remember willfully changing a line. actually it was one word, but my change meant all the other actors had to follow my lead. My character was in a years long dispute with her sister over an amethyst brooch only I could not pronounce the darn word no matter how I tried and the playwright (it was a local playwright, original play would not change it...so I did to emerald brooch.  None of the other actors ahd a problem but it made the playwright furious....
Logged
Commit random acts of kindness and sudden beauty


It’s weird being the same age as old people

Charles Pogue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4582
  • "The heart must bleed; not slobber." - F. Loesser
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #121 on: March 14, 2005, 12:13:33 PM »

Woody, the point is no one tells him how to draw or design or do his job. They may critique his work, but with a writer they start telling you specifically how to write the scene.  They change your dialogue to their own misguided notions of what sounds better, the change plot structure, they pull delicately-wrought strands that can unravel whole sections.  They don't don't get that specific with scenic designers or costumers or cameramen, because they know they cannot do that work...They can't DO the writer's work either, but the difference is THEY ALL THINK THEY CAN WRITE, so with the author they impose themselves more into his job and his work.

And you cannot survive in Hollywood without a thick skin.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't take it personally when it's your work they're screwing up and that you shouldn't bellow about it when it happens.  The reason the writers in Hollywood are on the low end of the totem pole and continually get trounced on is because they are a bunch of cowardly wusses who whine among themselves but refuse to stand up and call bullshit bullshit when it's bullshit!  
« Last Edit: March 14, 2005, 12:18:43 PM by Charles Pogue »
Logged

bk

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 153135
  • What is it, fish?
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #122 on: March 14, 2005, 12:15:14 PM »

We're not talking about critiquing.  We're talking about actors and directors doing a writer's job.  That is something wholly other.  It IS the director's job to oversee everything and to give notes - no one is arguing that.  Sometimes those notes will be spot on, sometimes not, but it is the writer or the set decorator or the cameraman who will make the changes requested - in other words, the actors don't DO the cameraman's JOB, the director doesn't do his JOB (i.e. light the set and deal with camera issues) - he may say something, he may criticize, but then the cameraman is left to address the problem, rather than the actor or director actually doing the job themselves.
Logged

bk

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 153135
  • What is it, fish?
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #123 on: March 14, 2005, 12:16:49 PM »

I have several people read my stuff in manuscript - they may give me their thoughts and opinions - IF I choose to address them, it's ME doing the work, not them.  They don't tell me HOW to address their problems, they tell me, from their point of view, what things in the manuscript, if any, might be problematic for them.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2005, 12:18:53 PM by bk »
Logged

bk

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 153135
  • What is it, fish?
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #124 on: March 14, 2005, 12:19:33 PM »

Pogue and I were both posting the same thought at the same time.  This is called serendipity.

And furthermore - TACITURN!
Logged

bk

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 153135
  • What is it, fish?
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #125 on: March 14, 2005, 12:20:11 PM »

I'm soooo glad the Floor Men aren't coming this week.

I'm going to my mail place to see if there are any packages for me, and to ship out a couple of things.
Logged

S. Woody White

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14695
  • The Lecture!
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #126 on: March 14, 2005, 12:20:27 PM »

And,no, in the golden era of film.  There was no willy-nilly changing of script.  They may have still used writers at times like tissue paper, but once that script was set, it was set.  And directors were hred hands just like wrters.  None of this auteur pretension.
Bull.

A classic example is Gone With the Wind.  That script went through a number of rewrites, most notably when Victor Fleming took over as director, proclaimed the film "had" no script, and shut down shooting for seventeen days (at great expense for just holding the sets) while Ben Hecht rewrote Sidney Howard.  And yes, I checked the DVD's documentary before posting this.  (Four-disc collector's edition, disc three, "The Making of a Legend: Gone With the Wind," chapter twenty.)
Logged
There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, and the sea's asleep, and the rivers dream; people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice, somewhere else the tea's getting cold. Come on, Ace. We've got work to do.

Stuart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1123
  • No one is alone.....
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #127 on: March 14, 2005, 12:20:47 PM »

DR Stuart:

Way out (for me anyway) in Bay Ridge near the end of the R line (69th Avenue I believe) and then a 15 minute walk to the abode.

Alas, not anywhere near where I (or DR Jay) used to live.  :(
Logged

bk

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 153135
  • What is it, fish?
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #128 on: March 14, 2005, 12:21:15 PM »

Twelve people - we've got us a quorum on the forum - or a jury.  Maybe we could do a version of the classic play about the jury and call it: TWELVE ANGRY HAINSIES/KIMLETS.
Logged

Jrand74

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 96000
  • Rosemary's Baby
    • Facebook for Jackrandall
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #129 on: March 14, 2005, 12:21:24 PM »

LOL.....DR JMK - yes Carroll Baker's HARLOW was a major piece of.....fiction.  It didn't start out that way.  It was originally going to be a thoughtful film directed by Carol Reed - then Joseph E. Levine got involved and then Bill Sargent and his knock-off version got going....and the rest is history.  To see the early pre-production photos in which Carroll is made up and dressed to an eerie Harlow impersonation and then to see the 1960's Edith Head-Sydney Guilliroff (sp) result is heartbreaking.

Carroll later wrote about her efforts to have the movie made as it was originally planned - per her contract - "Levine screamed: 'I piss on this contract, I piss on this movie, I piss on you...."  So they went into production, often times leaving the set before the paint was dry....Carroll watched HARLOW once on an airplane, and opined...."He pissed on the contract, he pissed on the movie, and he pissed on me."
Logged
....it has an undertaste.....

Jrand74

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 96000
  • Rosemary's Baby
    • Facebook for Jackrandall
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #130 on: March 14, 2005, 12:22:49 PM »

All that is true DR SWW - but I think one of the points made in that documentary is that GWTW started without a finished script...or at least one that was filmable.  :D
« Last Edit: March 14, 2005, 12:23:13 PM by JRand54 »
Logged
....it has an undertaste.....

Jrand74

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 96000
  • Rosemary's Baby
    • Facebook for Jackrandall
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #131 on: March 14, 2005, 12:24:02 PM »

DR vixmom - did you ask they writer why he chose Amythyst to begin with?
Logged
....it has an undertaste.....

S. Woody White

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14695
  • The Lecture!
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #132 on: March 14, 2005, 12:25:30 PM »

Would you say this to Hitchcock?

der Brucer
Generally, Hitch was the one doing the hiring of the writer.  And he was in the room with the writer when much of the work was being done.

Also, Hitch is something of a specialized case.

French film critics love him.  He proves the auteur theory.

*****

Addendum: Because I know der Brucer so well, I know he's referring to the body of work with which he is familiar, essentially from North by Northwest onwards.  Pogues reference to Selznick's input on Hitch's early Hollywood work is worth noting.

Which brings me too... (skip down to later in the page).
« Last Edit: March 14, 2005, 12:44:22 PM by S. Woody White »
Logged
There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, and the sea's asleep, and the rivers dream; people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice, somewhere else the tea's getting cold. Come on, Ace. We've got work to do.

vixmom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 75947
  • Commit random acts of kindness and sudden beauty
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #133 on: March 14, 2005, 12:26:32 PM »

I'm soooo glad the Floor Men aren't coming this week.

I'm going to my mail place to see if there are any packages for me, and to ship out a couple of things.

I  mailed you a package about an hour ago, I don't suppose it will be ther yet though   :D
Logged
Commit random acts of kindness and sudden beauty


It’s weird being the same age as old people

Charles Pogue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4582
  • "The heart must bleed; not slobber." - F. Loesser
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #134 on: March 14, 2005, 12:27:42 PM »

Ron, I look at changing a song to a singer's key more like the way an actor personalizes a role and makes it his own.  Two Hamlets can be incredibly different, but both Hamlets are using the same words to arrive at different palettes.  The same with a song, as long as a singer is singing the lyrics and following the melody, I think there is room for individual interpretation.  I love when actors bring something I never thought of to my writing, but I want him to do so with the tools I gave him, not to use them for his own jumping off place.  Same with singers.  I hate singers who think they have to hip up the words or had all kinds of squeaks, riffs, moans , groans, and Vegas everything up and show off their instrument to the detriment of the song.  As Rosemary Clooney used to say:  "I just sing the damn song."   Even in jazz riffs (and I'm not a huge jazz fan), the essence of the melody line can usually still be found underneath all the embroidery.  But BK or elmore could probably speak more knowledgeably of this than I.
Logged

MBarnum

  • Guest
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #135 on: March 14, 2005, 12:28:20 PM »

I  mailed you a package about an hour ago, I don't suppose it will be ther yet though   :D

Vixmom, you just make my day sometimes! LOL!
Logged

vixmom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 75947
  • Commit random acts of kindness and sudden beauty
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #136 on: March 14, 2005, 12:33:13 PM »

DR vixmom - did you ask they writer why he chose Amythyst to begin with?

Apparently it was "semi" autobiographical and he said by changing amythyst to Emerald I had "cheapened the memory" of his grandmother's story....silly me, i always thought emeralds were more expensive   ;)
Logged
Commit random acts of kindness and sudden beauty


It’s weird being the same age as old people

vixmom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 75947
  • Commit random acts of kindness and sudden beauty
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #137 on: March 14, 2005, 12:34:44 PM »

Vixmom, you just make my day sometimes! LOL!

jest tryin' to be sociable ;)
Logged
Commit random acts of kindness and sudden beauty


It’s weird being the same age as old people

MBarnum

  • Guest
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #138 on: March 14, 2005, 12:36:05 PM »

I don't recall if I mentioned this or not, but season one of DRAGNET (the 1960s run) is coming to DVD in a two-dvd set...I am quite happy about this!

Logged

vixmom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 75947
  • Commit random acts of kindness and sudden beauty
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #139 on: March 14, 2005, 12:36:50 PM »

Oh, apropos of nothing

Last night I wtched the first half of  "What If" courtesy of DR's elmore, Ben and WFO respectively passing it along.  Tonight Part !!!
Logged
Commit random acts of kindness and sudden beauty


It’s weird being the same age as old people

Jrand74

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 96000
  • Rosemary's Baby
    • Facebook for Jackrandall
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #140 on: March 14, 2005, 12:47:31 PM »

Ah...I see....thanks DR VIXMOM.....
Logged
....it has an undertaste.....

Charles Pogue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4582
  • "The heart must bleed; not slobber." - F. Loesser
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #141 on: March 14, 2005, 12:57:15 PM »

Woody, we can always find exceptions to the rule.  But it was Selznick overseeing script re-writes.  Read Memo, that man micro-managed everything in his films.  I wouldn't know whether Hitch hired his writers or not.  If he was also producing, most likely, but Hitch doesn't prove the auteur theory at all...which, in fact, was (just like The Method) bastardized in its American interpretation.  Hitchcock had a style that's all.   He didn't really ascend to "auteur" status until the fifties.

But he doesn't prove the auteur myth...because it's just that. Utter bollocks! No one is an auteur, because no one person is totally responsible for a film.  Unless Hitchcock wrote the script, played all the parts, directed, designed everything, built everything, fed the crew (which would have to be himself...because he'd have to do all the crew jobs too), and financed the thing, he no more deserves a possessive title of creative ownership on a film than anyone else who contributed to it.  It is not one man's film.  If any entity has a right to claim a possessive credit (or vanity credit, as we call it out here in Hollywood), it should be the studio...They are the ones who paid for it; they're the ones who own it.  It's their damn film.   They can do anything they want with it at this point...including chop it up to guitar picks.

It's just another reason why I hate DVD extras.  People just buy into any crap that's spewed on them and then all of a sudden, they're all armchair experts about the film biz.  It's like a friend of mine once said, "Everyone has two businesses; their own and show business."  But when the layman public suddenly starts thinking they're experts, it just shows how easy it is for egos in this town to get out of control and go off on flights of fancy.

I also don't know that Hitch work that intimately with the writers. When I did PSYCHO III, I read Joe Stephano's original script.  It's all on the page.  All Hitch had to do was film it.  Which he did.

"If the director changed the script...all Hell would break loose upstairs in the executive dining room.  Each day, Bernie Thau would watch rushes, and he would say, 'What happened here?  You changed the shot.  Why?'  So a large horse-laugh went through this town when the French, who are always wrong, suddenly decided all these hacks were truly great creators...France is a nation devoted to the false hypothesis on which it then builds marvelously logical structures.  Orson Welles, a very funny man, once said to me, 'You know, the French ruin everything.  They come up to you and say, "You are one of the three great directors of the cinema." ' Orson said, ' I nod, I nod.'  ' "There is D. W. Griffith. There is Orson Welles.  And there is Nicholas Ray." ' He said, ' There is always that third name that crushes you.' "

-- Gore Vidal, talking about when he was writing movies in the fifties at M-G-M --

Logged

Jennifer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20385
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #142 on: March 14, 2005, 12:58:14 PM »

I really enjoyed the dvd of the TERMINAL.

And I would second BK's comments that Kristin Chenoweth's version of "Lion Tamer" is perfect.  When I first got the cd I just played that song over and over and over ... :)
Logged

Jrand74

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 96000
  • Rosemary's Baby
    • Facebook for Jackrandall
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #143 on: March 14, 2005, 01:05:37 PM »

Didn't Mr Hitchcock have Mrs Hitchcock go over the scripts he was doing?  
Logged
....it has an undertaste.....

Jrand74

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 96000
  • Rosemary's Baby
    • Facebook for Jackrandall
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #144 on: March 14, 2005, 01:05:58 PM »

Dinner time!
Logged
....it has an undertaste.....

S. Woody White

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14695
  • The Lecture!
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #145 on: March 14, 2005, 01:14:52 PM »

Woody, the point is no one tells him how to draw or design or do his job. They may critique his work, but with a writer they start telling you specifically how to write the scene.  They change your dialogue to their own misguided notions of what sounds better, the change plot structure, they pull delicately-wrought strands that can unravel whole sections.  They don't don't get that specific with scenic designers or costumers or cameramen, because they know they cannot do that work...They can't DO the writer's work either, but the difference is THEY ALL THINK THEY CAN WRITE, so with the author they impose themselves more into his job and his work.

And you cannot survive in Hollywood without a thick skin.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't take it personally when it's your work they're screwing up and that you shouldn't bellow about it when it happens.  The reason the writers in Hollywood are on the low end of the totem pole and continually get trounced on is because they are a bunch of cowardly wusses who whine among themselves but refuse to stand up and call bullshit bullshit when it's bullshit!  
Clearly you are speaking of what happens now in filmmaking.  

Back in the days when the studios were cranking out product by the shovelfull, the heads of the studios were very definately in charge, and not only were they critiquing the work, they were rejecting it, replacing one person's work with another's, and when they felt it necessary calling in the minions who were doing the work and telling them exactly how to write, how to design, how to create.  (Example: Selznick commanding Hitchcock.)  This is probably why the department heads were often taking credit for their underlings when the awards were handed out...assuming the studio head hadn't already grabbed the statuette.

The studio system collapsed, replaced by corporations with people running the corporations who had no experience in the creative process.  The crafts departments were dismantled, the talent dispersed.  Which is where we are today.

Now, let's take a stab at why the writers work is such an easy target.  We've been sashaying around this for a while, it's been hinted at in some of the earlier posts.  

If writing is such an easy target, it's because most people don't think of it as writing, they think of it as something they themselves do every day, which is stringing a bunch of words together into sentences and talking.  Everyone can talk, or believes that they know how to do so.  It's a basic skill, hard-wired into our brains.  

And, when it comes to scripts, everyone, even the schlub that buys a ticket, thinks they can do it better.  I remember one discussion, back when Dreamgirls was being considered as a film property.  A co-worker of mine was insisting that they had to cast Whitney Houston...as Effie.  I objected that Effie was supposed to be a big woman, not a statuesque beauty.  I pointed out that much of the plot of the show was based on that fact.  It didn't matter to the co-worker; she wanted Whitney to play Effie so that she could sing "And I'm Telling You I'm Not Going."  Plot be damned, she wanted that performance.  

And that's how films are viewed.  It's the performance that matters.  No one in the audience (except for those of us who aren't obsessed with film) cares about the director, or the writer, or how things were designed or lit or shot.  It's all about the performance, that which gets up on the screen and is seen by schlub-with-ticket.  Or the former accountant running the corporation, same guy really.  That's the bottom line.

The only people who seem to avoid this type of thinking are the independent filmmakers.  And if they're successful in their filmmaking and grab that schlub's attention, they usually also grab Hollywood's attention and don't stay independent for long.
Logged
There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, and the sea's asleep, and the rivers dream; people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice, somewhere else the tea's getting cold. Come on, Ace. We've got work to do.

elmore3003

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 72231
  • What is it, fish?
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #146 on: March 14, 2005, 01:18:08 PM »

 Even in jazz riffs (and I'm not a huge jazz fan), the essence of the melody line can usually still be found underneath all the embroidery.  But BK or elmore could probably speak more knowledgeably of this than I.

I've been following all this discussion with interest, but I don't know if I have anything to add to the screenwriting part of it:  I find DRPogue's ordeal with DRAGONHEART outrageous that other folk who go on record stating how much they love his work then proceed to remake/redo his baby, but this happens in the professional theatre all the time when Sandy Wilson (THE BOY FRIEND) and Stephen Schwartz (PIPPIN) are banned by the producers/directors.  Jeffrey Stock was treated poorly by the producer of TRIUMPH OF LOVE who brought in other composers to augment the score.  But now I'm rambling; I knew I had nothing to say.  Did I zig when I should have zagged?

As to songs, we're dealing with popular song here, as opposed to classical music which also permits a certain amount of transposition, but the popular song has always been the bailiwick of the singer and his arranger to pick whatever key works best for himself and to find the attitude/approach to a song.  This can often be quite magical and invigorating, as long as the singer is honest to the melody, the harmonies, and the lyrics.  A tacky singer can trash a song, and there are a lot of not-so-bright performers out there.   I've worked with a couple, although I don't recall working with any who managed to trash a number.  I must admit that I have trashed several songs I felt deserved it (never for BK), but I hate it when I hear an arranger do it to a good song.

I was listening recently to Steve Goodman's recording of "The City of New Orleans," a song he wrote, and I had only known it through Judy Collins' recording.  Miss Collins, I was surprised to learn, had changed a couple of words in her recording, but Mr Goodman was one of her backup players!

I do like jazz singers when they're good, but bad jazz singers are as prolific as bad pop singers.  In her composer songbooks, Ella Fitzgerald amazes me.  I regard jazz as a theme and variations situation:  I expect at least once to get the tune, lyrics, and harmonies to be established before the players run with it.  This isn't always the case.

Opera singers, often when they age and the voice begins to fall, will have arias transposed down, and some classical pieces exist in several keys for singer and piano.  This is a different discussion than the one I'm wandering aimlessly through.
Logged
"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats" - Albert Schweitzer

Matt H.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 52338
  • Side by side by Sondheim
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #147 on: March 14, 2005, 01:18:44 PM »

A friend who has been watching the second season of CARNIVALE (I have not) summarized for me on Saturday everything that had happened thus far this season. So, last night, I recorded CARNIVALE to see if I could get back into it knowing what I knew from last season plus my friend's summaries. Watched Sunday's episode today and found it easy to follow along. There are only a few more episodes to go in this season, so I guess I'll stay with it. Really good and lots of character interaction now taking place, too.
Logged
If at first you don't succeed, that's about average for me.

Matt H.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 52338
  • Side by side by Sondheim
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #148 on: March 14, 2005, 01:27:54 PM »

In Truffaut's HITCHCOCK, Hitchcock seems to have had intimate story conferences with some of his writers and with others simply let them write and then took their finished work and filmed it. It varied with each project.

I do know that he resented the fact that Selznick had the final say-so on their pictures together, and this was one reason he wanted to become a producer as well as a director once his contract with Selznick ran out.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2005, 01:29:10 PM by Matt H. »
Logged
If at first you don't succeed, that's about average for me.

Matt H.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 52338
  • Side by side by Sondheim
Re:THE FLOOR MEN
« Reply #149 on: March 14, 2005, 01:29:49 PM »

Nice to see MEDIUM back on tonight with a new episode. I'll be watching.
Logged
If at first you don't succeed, that's about average for me.
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 9   Go Up