Topic: THE LAST OF JUNE (Read 24028 times)

bk · « **on:** June 29, 2004, 11:59:53 PM »

Well, you've read the notes, you know the secret of The Last of June, you're ready to ask excellent questions and therefore you simply must post until the cows come home.

Panni · « **Reply #1 on:** June 30, 2004, 12:21:27 AM »

Re the cheesecake/beefcake question... JRand gave a good explanation yesterday. I'll quote for those who missed it:

"Cheesecake in the literal sense is a rich dessert made of cream cheese, butter and sugar. Cheesecake as a slang term for non hardcore photos of women, leg art, or in short skirts, bathing costumes, etc., first arose in the depths of the depression. At that time even having the basic necessities of life was difficult, so these lovely girls would have seemed as unattainable to the average reader of the pulp and glossy magazines as a rich, expensive dessert - cheesecake.
Beefcake....came a bit later....the beef referring of course to the muscles."

S. Woody White · « **Reply #2 on:** June 30, 2004, 12:37:36 AM »

Also, continueing from yesterday's posts...

I don't think der Brucer needs or wants points.

Well, yes, he deserves them, but they won't matter to him in the long run. Helping the former midshipman will matter more.

What he may need is a think tank, a group to help him work through problems, ask questions that need asking, even if they seem silly at first. Some of the suggestions would probably be rejected, but others might be worth pursuing, and if they are ideas he hasn't thought of himself, then everyone might gain.

I'm going to leave it to him to ask the questions he needs to ask. The response I've seen so far tonight suggests that this is a good group to ask questions, and I think that's a good thing.

In advance, I thank you all.

Dan-in-Toronto · « **Reply #3 on:** June 30, 2004, 04:56:30 AM »

Also from yesterday's posts.

The cheesecake and pretzel salad items made me think about when we had Gord's nephew staying here for eight weeks. He's a good kid, but we couldn't change his eating patterns. (He had never before seen homemade macaroni and cheese. And we went through three bottles of ketchup.) I made a cheesecake along the lines of JRand's definition (very rich: lots of cheese, eggs, sour cream). Jason had a bite, but politely told me that his mom's was really awesome. He brought us a slice after a weekend home. You couldn't taste the cheese, the main ingredients being cool whip, dream whip, and jello. At least it didn't have a crushed-pretzel crust.

DERBRUCER · « **Reply #4 on:** June 30, 2004, 05:30:55 AM »

TODAY'S VISUAL TREATS

All pix were taken by Cassini (Huygens not Oleg). More like them can be viewed at Cassini-Huygens Homepage

der space-traveling Brucer

Ben · « **Reply #5 on:** June 30, 2004, 05:44:22 AM »

Friends, Romans, HHW men and women, if you haven't listened to Donald's show yet, hie thee over. It's lots of fun and there is a GREAT cover of Lucy and Jessie from Follies done by the amazing and wonderful Janis Siegel (from her new Broadway album). It's up for two weeks due to Donald lounging on the beaches of Hawaii. Go Donald!!!

DERBRUCER · « **Reply #6 on:** June 30, 2004, 06:17:06 AM »

Since DR Woody brought up the issue:

The Problem:

Young Midshipmen comes out as Gay and is expelled from the Naval Academy. His first inclination is to get an apartment with his new boy friend, but on reflection, is urged to come back home.

His words:

Quote

I talked with my parents, and they said that if I returned home, we as a family would figure everything out. That ended up being my course of action. Little did I know that "working things out" had unstated stipulations.

After spending the first week back home in Florida, with my parents ashamed that I left the Naval Academy before graduating, I sat down and really tried to figure out what to do next. It has all seemed overwhelming.

Life at home has been challenging. I knew that it would not be easy. These days there is a ton of drama, anger, sadness, pain, sorrow, and anguish. The situation is on the verge of becoming critical as my parents are constantly fighting me about everything--even if it has nothing to do with my sexuality. I wish I could get them to see things from my eyes, but I've almost given up hope.

They have told me that they will never support or accept my being gay, and they say that I have changed--and am a stranger to them. How do people deal with this when they come out to their family? I have learned to try and block out what some people say about gays and lesbians. But how can you block out what your parents say?

How indeed?

My feeble attempts at a reply:

Quote

First of all, don't ever believe "nevers". If your parents were like mine they wore your Midshipman status on the sleeve like a badge of honor - your no-longer being a Midshipman (no matter what the reason) is a grievous blow to their public image so they are working through pain, anger, and resentment just as you are.

They say you have changed - and have become a stranger to them - which in many ways is true. The cocoon has turned into a butterfly; but in your case, the metamorphosis was unanticipated and decidedly unwelcome. For your parents the "Tale of the Ugly Ducking" has played out in reverse - their darling baby swan has matured into a big squawking duck.

Since we live in a society that seems to always be seeking to fix the blame, your folks are agonizing over "what did we do wrong"! I'm sure many of your relatives are muttering "What did they do to that boy" in between their groans of "How Could You Do This To Your Parents Who Sacrificed Everything For You". Your extended family all want you to take your homosexuality back to the library and check out a different book - remember, most straights admit they don't understand how anybody could be Gay, and at the same time think all you have to do is "change your mind" and go straight. They have no problem proclaiming "I could never be queer!" but can not listen to "Well, I can never be straight!"

It might help to really believe your parents. I'm sure thay always told you that they love you, will always love you no matter what, and only want what's best for you. Well, trust that they meant it. Cling to the belief that when they ultimately understand that "This is You" and that this is just "You Growing out of your cocoon" they will honor their "I will always love you" promise. Accept that they, too, are going through trying times. Families usually rely on each other for comfort in time of stress, but your family is broken for the moment and all members need to find other avenues of relief. A comment that your family is now "dysfunctional" and needs group counseling is a stock Ann Landers answer - but has merit.

Your problem is confounded if your family is not familiar with the many examples of gay men leading happy, fulfilling lives. They no doubt have nightmares of their queer son being bashed in an alley or dying of AIDS at 26. If you have not yet made the acquaintance of PFLAG, I strongly urge you to do so. They not only offer great support to parents learning to deal with having a gay child - they also do great work in helping young gay men and women deal with unaccepting families

(There're 22 PFLAG chapters in FLA, [link to PFLAG] contact one near you - they are by far the best resource available.)

You also need a support group beyond the local bar/gym - have you any older gay friends in the area? In this wonderful world of Hi-Tech, even Email friends can be a great resource. (With Email you can vent, ramble, agonize - and never have to look at the other guys face!)

And no matter what others might say: this is not a phase you're going through, things might well get worse before they get better - there is light at the end of the tunnel, but unfortunately the road is filed with pot-holes, there are only a few out of date maps and some inaccurate Guide Books, and AAA's number is always busy.

The problem is, I have no good words on how he can approach his parents – they need help as much as he does! As most of us know, advice to “seek counseling” or “find a support group” usually goes unheeded by those who need it the most.

Question:

If it were your nephew, what would you advise?

der Brucer (feeling like Dear Abby)

Ben · « **Reply #7 on:** June 30, 2004, 06:24:55 AM »

There are 14 people here. Of course, 10 of them are guests but who's counting ;-)

Jennifer · « **Reply #8 on:** June 30, 2004, 06:31:00 AM »

Good morning all!

Wow, BK, that is terrible news about the back-up play. If it is true and they made a mistake, are they going to pay you for all the time you've wasted because of their mistake?

I hate incompetence like that!

DERBRUCER · « **Reply #9 on:** June 30, 2004, 06:38:36 AM »

Dear Jennifer,

Thinking of you.

Affectionately

Der Brucer

Jennifer · « **Reply #10 on:** June 30, 2004, 06:48:40 AM »

DR Der Brucer, this kid got kicked out of the naval academy just for telling them he was gay?

And btw, what did I ever do to make me the anti-gun person at HHW? But I do love that t-shirt!

Jennifer · « **Reply #11 on:** June 30, 2004, 06:50:06 AM »

Oh and here is my question for BK: You had mentioned that Juliana might continue her journal. Is she?

MBarnum · « **Reply #12 on:** June 30, 2004, 07:31:04 AM »

Ah, TO HELL AND BACK, a wonderful Universal-International picture from 1955! And with a great cast of contract players too...Marshall Thompson...Gregg Palmer...Charles Drake...Jack Kelly...David Janssen...Brett Halsey...

So my question for BK and others...what are your favorite 1950s Universal films and who are some of your favorite 1950s Universal contract players?

MBarnum · « **Reply #13 on:** June 30, 2004, 07:35:53 AM »

Oh, and to answer my own question...

Favorite 1950s Universal contract players:

Allison Hayes
Lori Nelson
Rex Reason
William Reynolds
Merry Anders
Gregg Palmer
Mamie Van Doren
Rock Hudson
John Saxon
George Nader
Gloria Talbott

Fave 1950s Universals:

THING THAT COULDN'T DIE
THERE'S ALWAYS TOMORROW
UNGUARDED MOMENT
ALL THAT HEAVEN ALLOWS
HARVEY
TUMBLEWEED
WE'RE NO ANGELS
STAR IN THE DUST

Dan-in-Toronto · « **Reply #14 on:** June 30, 2004, 07:47:48 AM »

cheesecake/beefcake. I remember reading a review years ago of an off-broadway play, but can't remember the title. The reviewer, as I recall, said that one of the most moving scenes was when the family presented the father, who was a butcher, with a birthday cake made from ground meat.

MBarnum · « **Reply #15 on:** June 30, 2004, 07:49:26 AM »

DR JRand, thank you for the link to the new Frances Farmer stuff on DR JMKs sight. Very interesting! I listened to parts of the Lois Kibee interview at work but will have to wait and listen to more when I am in the home environment....but gosh what a find for you guys!

I am almost done with that second FF book...but I am counting on your two to finally discover the "real" FF story!

Dan-in-Toronto · « **Reply #16 on:** June 30, 2004, 07:50:37 AM »

Der Brucer,

Your reply was anything but feeble. Your words were thoughtful and caring, and spoken as a friend.

Ben · « **Reply #17 on:** June 30, 2004, 07:52:21 AM »

Karen Carpenter singing You're Just in Love!!!

OMG

It's on this week's radio show folks.

Matt H. · « **Reply #18 on:** June 30, 2004, 07:53:52 AM »

The problem as I see it is that the parents who need the help in dealing with this don't see that they're the problem, and until they WANT help, there's little anyone can do. They seem to insist that their son conform to their demands of what he should be. Until they get that idea out of their heads (and they may not ever see things from a different perspective), I see little hope in getting through to them.

Better to leave them to sorting things out for themselves, making oneself available for their questions but taking oneself away from their condemnation. Life's too short to endure that kind of abuse.

DERBRUCER · « **Reply #19 on:** June 30, 2004, 08:20:41 AM »

Quote from: Jennifer on June 30, 2004, 06:48:40 AM

DR Der Brucer, this kid got kicked out of the naval academy just for telling them he was gay?

Yup - that's all it takes.

And you get thrown out of any branch of the Services if you admit to being gay (or others identify you as homosexual). Sexual Orientation is considered a pre-disposition to conduct - and homosexual conduct is a crime under The Uniform Code of Military Justice.

The Armed Forces just recently lost a large number of it's Arabic speaking servicemen for being gay.

Here is a Washington Post Editorial on the subject:

Quote

Still No Gay Linguists

Wednesday, April 16, 2003; Page A26

THE UNITED STATES may be at war -- both with al Qaeda and in Iraq -- but the military still knows a domestic threat when it sees one: gay linguists in training. Last year, the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network (SLDN), an advocacy group that represents gay men and lesbians trying to serve their country despite the military's irrational "don't ask, don't tell" policy, disclosed that the military had discharged at least 10 linguists, seven of them Arabic-speaking, because of their sexual orientations. The military preferred to exacerbate a governmentwide shortage of Arabic-speakers rather than relax its gay ban, though the policy stigmatizes patriots and injures the military's readiness. You might think the Pentagon would have responded to the negative publicity. But apparently it has been undeterred.

In fact, the SLDN now informs us that the discharge of gay linguists has actually accelerated. The group has represented 24 linguists -- nine speak Arabic, eight Korean, three Farsi, two Chinese and two Russian -- and knows of at least one other case. According to Steve Ralls, the group's spokesman, 22 of the discharges are complete. (The Defense Department did not respond to calls seeking comment regarding the SLDN's claims.) Overall, gay discharges actually declined last year -- as they typically do when the country faces war and cannot afford to spend its time on witch hunts. But the progress has been spotty. So even as some gay men and lesbians are being tolerated temporarily while they help liberate Iraq, others are being kicked out of military language training. This is an enormous waste of human resources, at once self-destructive and unjust. The military cannot afford to brand as unfit for service qualified men and women who wish to put their talents -- whether those lie in combat roles or languages -- in the service of their country.

© 2003 The Washington Post Company

When Clinton was campaigning for President, he promised that he would issue an Executive Order allowing for gay men and women to serve in the Armed Forces.

After his election, when he attempted to fulfill his promise, he met with stiff congressional resistance, spear-headed by Sen. Sam Nunn of Georgia (ironically, a fellow Democrat). The Up-shot was the (in)Famous "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. (Prior to this time servicemen were specifically asked if the had "homosexual tendencies" - an affirmative answer was cause for rejection; if latter conduct refuted your denial of "tendencies" you could be discharged under other than honorable conditions. (The Catch22 - they didn't have to prosecute you for the "conduct" - they had you on the lying!). The character of the discharge meant you lost all your GI benefits (no VA Loans for you) and in many state jurisdictions you were denied professional licensing. (An enlisted man who served under me in the Navy had his application for a Cosmetology License denied by the state of California because he was discharged from the Navy for being a homosexual! Imagine - a Gay Hair Dresser - in San Francisco - never happen!)

Sen. Kerry has suggested that if elected, he would "review" the policy, but made no commitment to change it.

Here is an extract from a PlanetOut news article:

Quote

Kerry hints he'd review "don't ask, don't tell" if elected
Eric Johnston, PlanetOut Network
Monday, June 28, 2004 / 06:15 PM

SUMMARY: If he is elected president, Democratic presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry hinted he might review the "don't ask, don't tell" policy on gays in the military.

If he is elected president, Democratic presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry hinted he might review the "don't ask, don't tell" policy on gays in the military.
Kerry commented on the thorny issue in an article published in Monday's edition of the Army Times and its sister publications Navy Times, Air Force Times and Marine Times.

"It seems to me we are losing a lot of talent for our nation in interpreters, in intelligence, in a lot of different things," Kerry said in the interview. "There must be a way for those people to serve somehow."

Since "don't ask, don't tell" was adopted in 1994, nearly 10,000 military personnel have been discharged, according to data published by the Associated Press and obtained from the Defense Manpower Data Center. They included linguists, nuclear warfare experts and other key specialists.

"Don't ask, don't tell" allows gays to serve in the military only if they keep their sexual orientation private.

"We welcome the opportunity to work with Senator Kerry to review the policy and to allow freedom for gays and lesbians who want to serve openly," said Steve Ralls, director of communications for the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, a watchdog organization dedicated to ending discrimination against gay people serving in the military.

Ralls told the PlanetOut Network that such a review was "far overdue."

Kerry said he was not certain the policy should be changed, saying he would "sit down with my lead commanders in the military and figure out whether there is a way to put talented people to work without running into a confrontation with unit cohesion issues and other things that I respect and understand."
Ralls noted Kerry has been a "longtime advocate on behalf of lesbian and gay service members.

"He testified in 1993 on behalf of gay and lesbian service members and voted against 'don't ask, don't tell,'" Ralls said.

der Brucer

MBarnum · « **Reply #20 on:** June 30, 2004, 08:24:20 AM »

I think Der Brucer is doing a find job! DB might want to remind the young man that it likely took himself a few years to adjust to the realization that he was gay, and it may also take some of his family members time to adjust as well. It is possible that some may not adjust as well as others but if he continues to love them unconditionally then perhaps they will return the favor...or not...and if not it is no reflection on himself.

Ron Pulliam · « **Reply #21 on:** June 30, 2004, 08:36:51 AM »

DR DerBrucer: I appreciate the young man's acceptance of his parents' offer to come home and work it all out.

I think, however, he could do it better "away" from the family home. Is he free to go out, make friends and have them over? Does he have anyone in town to confide in...whom he can go to and unwind, vent, or just hang out with (go to dinner or a movie)? His parents can cling to one another, but they seem hellbent on giving their son no slack at all.

He needs an emotional outlet. He needs a place he can go where he can put the "family crisis" totally out of his mind.

He needs "to know" that if his parents absolutely and utterly refuse to "accept" him as gay that he can make it on his own without them.

They need to know that, too!

Matt H. · « **Reply #22 on:** June 30, 2004, 08:37:11 AM »

I enjoyed the interview with Patricia Neal on PRIVATE SCREENINGS the other night, but I was a little disappointed that the last film woprk of any kind touched on was THE SUBJECT WAS ROSES (made in 1968). What's been going on in her life since she made that film after that horrific series of strokes? Any films? Stage work? Does she live in LA, England, New York? Just wanted more information, I guess.

Jennifer · « **Reply #23 on:** June 30, 2004, 08:37:14 AM »

DR Der Brucer, how exactly do they prove that someone is gay? And if the people know they will be thrown out why do they admit to it? Or why do they enroll in the first place?

It's absolutely amazing that this is allowed to go on.

And re: your young friend, I think him living with his family is probably not a good thing right now. Hopefully his parents will come to accept him, but right now they are not able to do that. Maybe he could give them some books to read.

JoseSPiano · « **Reply #24 on:** June 30, 2004, 08:43:33 AM »

Good Morning!

-Well, I didn't fall asleep on the "coach" last night - like I did the night before

- and I'm feeling much better this morning. I just always forget how well the A/C works in my parents' house - I woke up feeling a little dehyrdrated and with a dry, sort-a scratchy throat. Nothing a few glasses of water didn't remedy - along with a glass of orange juice. In any case...

Ron Pulliam · « **Reply #25 on:** June 30, 2004, 08:46:22 AM »

I caught up with last evening's posts this morning.

Sorry if my posts about opinions being expressed about "DeLovely" and how it uses Porter's music without any references to what caused the opinions to be made upset anyone in any way.

No one here is, of course, accountable to anyone, least of all me.

I'm one of those strange people who think that if one doesn't wish to explain why one says he hates something/someone or refuses to see something/someone, or to hear something/someone, he or she might reconsider flinging the opinion out into a forum filled with people who like to discuss things.

Folks are always going to ask "why" if the why isn't clear.

Panni · « **Reply #26 on:** June 30, 2004, 08:51:18 AM »

der Brucer - What you said to the young man was, IMHO, excellent. It allows him to understand that his parents love him -- and yet are misguided (to say the least). It's too easy - and at this stage not helpful - to paint the parents as vile and hateful. What he doesn't need right now is to believe that his parents, of all people, don't love him.
As for how to approach the parents - here's one thought for a beginning at least. Maybe you could gather a list of good films (and there are some, including movies for television) about parents coming to an acceptance of their gay offspring. (The trick is to find a few that do not deal with the gay character dying of AIDS!) He could simply ask them to sit with him and watch a film. I would think there is nothing threatening in that. Then talk afterwards about what they've just watched - not about them, but the movie. At least it might open up conversation.
BTW - I was reading about a book: BEYOND ACCEPTANCE: PARENTS OF LESBIANS AND GAYS TALK ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES by Carolyn Welch Griffin, Marian Jenks Wirth, Arthur G. Wirth - Sounds like it might be helpful.
Here's a brief review: "Every happy family is alike, and every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way," wrote Leo Tolstoy. Families dealing with a child's homosexuality are certainly forced by a homophobic culture to experience a whole range of unhappiness. Beyond Acceptance deals with a variety of issues facing heterosexual parents of gay children, from facing what the neighbors will say to worrying about AIDS and social ostracism to feeling angry and guilt-ridden.
Various people speak about how they came to their misinformed views about gayness, their religious beliefs, their fears that friends will abandon them after finding out about their child's homosexuality, and their anxieties about AIDS. Often people find similar solutions to their problems, and sometimes different ones, but in all cases the message is that understanding, love, and a need to own up to, and dispense with, ignorant homophobic attitudes can bring families back together in a wholesome and nurturing manner. Frank, informed, and filled with insights and practical suggestions, Beyond Acceptance is a fine addition to the literature on homophobia and families.

William E. Lurie · « **Reply #27 on:** June 30, 2004, 08:54:17 AM »

In my day, being Gay was one of the best ways to avoid the draft.

Favorite Universal star: Gigi Perreau, also the first movie star I ever met thanks to a relative (one of the many relatives of my mother whose exact relationship I never figured out) who ran the publicity department of Universal-International's Chicago office.

DERBRUCER · « **Reply #28 on:** June 30, 2004, 08:55:48 AM »

Quote from: MBarnum on June 30, 2004, 08:24:20 AM

...and if not it is no reflection on himself.

A key point. I suspect the lad has major self-esteem issues right now - he got booted from a prestigious school and has disgraced his family - all his plans for a future are in the toilet and he has insufficient means to go it alone. I'm sure a knowledgeable psychologist would say that there was a real storm brewing in this kid and outside intervention is crucial.

My challenge now is to set up (by remote control) a support system to help him, and others like him to follow (I'll discuss more in my next post).

der Brucer

Panni · « **Reply #29 on:** June 30, 2004, 08:57:52 AM »

I must now write. So I may check in and lurk but not say much for a good part of today.

News:

Author Topic: THE LAST OF JUNE (Read 24028 times)

Ben

Ben

MBarnum

MBarnum

MBarnum

Ben

MBarnum