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Author Topic: THOUGHT PROVOKING  (Read 23344 times)

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bk

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THOUGHT PROVOKING
« on: March 08, 2004, 12:01:25 AM »

Well, you've read the notes, you've divined the true meaning of the notes, therefore you simply must post until the cows come home.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2004, 12:01:48 AM by bk »
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bk

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2004, 12:09:29 AM »

Here is Mr. Pogue's late-night post re Dragonheart, which I reprint here since it addresses things in my comments on the film.  I will only add that I am glad to hear that he thought the girl was terrible.  I tried to be nice, but she stinks to high hell in the film.  On the documentary, she praises Mr. Director, so there you are.  Here are Mr. Pogue's comments:

Bk, I just couldn't bear to listen to the commentary so I never have...for the very reason you state.  The director from the first day of pre-production started taking credit for everything.  Forget that both the producer and I and the original director spent four years of our life on it before he ever came aboard.  If you listen to him, you'd think he taught the actors how to act, fed the crew, built the sets, designed everything, took the tickets at the box-office.  He is a vicious, venal, vile, virtuperative little blowhard of a human being (and I use the word "human Being" in its minimal, basest biological sense), IMHO, who if he couldn't take credit for everyone else's talent would try to diminish it.  Not an ounce of poetry in his soul and a thoroughly nasty piece of work.  I have never seen a cast and crew so united in their antipathy for a director before.  But he is merely a man who cannot rise above his mediocrity.

The producer who actually had knew what she had is really at fault.  She abandoned her passion and power to capitulate to the director's petty ego and descend to his mediocrity.  She told me once in Bratislava at dinner, "Rob pisses around on your script because he is jealous of your talent and he is afraid of you."  Which was true, but when I asked her very sensibly then why did she allow him to piss around on the script (at one time she told him, he'd "butchered" it), she said:  "It's the process."  One needs a producer who knows the difference between collaboration and compromise and keep firm in the fray and not become the Queen of Capitulation.

The worst cast member...almost despised as much as the director was the actress playing the girl...so many of her scenes (and more important, Dennis' good scenes) got cut  because of her performance.  Dennis was a hard-working trouper and a consummate professional.  Can't say enough good about him.  Pete Posthlethwaite, Jason Isaacs, and David Thewlis were all great, but hampered by such bad direction.  The funniest breakfast I've ever had was with Pete and David bitching about the director.  Thewlis said, "I feel like I'm shouting all the time." Pete's comment about the director was: :"Just figure out where to put the camera, mate, and let us do the thinking."

I have avoided the commentary because I knew it would be a pack of lies.  The reason there is only ten seconds of me is because they were desperately trying to muzzle me.  I wasn't even going to be included until I raised a stink to the WGA.  They filmed an hour's interview with me of which you get just that one clip.

Worst things about the movie are all the nuances are gone, the connective tissue, emotional subtlety, and what one critic called "the plough-horse direction".  No poetry of soul, no delicacy.  Oh, and, of course, the pigs scene.  This was an inspiration of the director's he thought it would be funny if a village of starving peasants was full of pigs, despite the fact that once the villagers think the dragon is dead they rush it saying "Meat, Meat, Meat."  We all told him it made no sense, but he's the type of person that rather than admit he's wrong would entrench more adamantly into his position.  He thought we were trying to make him look stupid, we kept saying:  "No we're trying to make you look smart!"  One astute  reviewer noticed this glaring inconsistency of idiocy.  I write about what went wrong with this and other things in my forward of the published screenplay (which has no pigs in it). But this idiotic gap of logic that everone let slide rather than force the director to get rid of it tells the tale of DRAGONHEART.  Let's knowingly do something that's wrong rather than put of with the aggravation of reining in a childish, egomaniacal direction.

One last story.  One day the producer was commenting on how much she like the storyboard artist's work.  The director, full of umbrage, immediately piped up:  "But I told her what to draw!"

Ugh!  Bad Karma!  Oh, now you made me dredge all this shit up again.  I need an acid reducer.
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bk

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2004, 12:14:06 AM »

Hello seven GUESTS.
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S. Woody White

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2004, 12:19:14 AM »

Re: Fantasy Stories:

Has anyone out there heard of the books written by Edward Eager?  Titles: Half Magic, Knight's Castle, Magic By the Lake, The Time Garden, and three others.

I've always wondered why they were never adapted to any other medium.  (That the central characters in Knight's Castle and The Time Garden were the children of the now-adult leads from Half Magic/Magic By the Lake was always a bit of fun.)
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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2004, 12:26:40 AM »

The works of Clive Barker would be my favourite fantasy books - horror and eroticism in there too.
Of course this another chance to mention the wonderful "Lord Of The Rings" too.
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Charles Pogue

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2004, 12:32:20 AM »

BK, I think I finished off last night's message board with a long rant about my woes on DRAGONHEART (not nearly long enough...I kept a journal during the filming that is nearly 400,000 words long.  Someday maybe it will see the light of day.  Certainly a useful document of how a writer is treated and all the more strange since it was a writer of a much-lauded script.)

For those who didn't read last night's final post or for those who did and might have their appetites whetted,  below is an address for an internet site, Hour25online, where I talk for about two hours on my entire career and, in depth on Dragonheart, detailing the pig story. Should the link not work, just go to Hour25online and it the previous interviews link and look up April 18 and April 30, 2001 which are the dates for my two-part interview.  I think the Dragonheart stuff is in the second half.

The link:

www.hour25online.com/Hour25_Previous_Shows_2001-4.html#chuck-pogue_2001-04-18

Favourite fantasy films would be:

Korda's THIEF OF BAGHDAD (1939)
5,000 FINGERS OF DR. T
DER NIEBELUNGEN (Fritz Lang- silent...Both parts)
THE BISHOP'S WIFE
IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE
CAT PEOPLE (Val Lewton's version)
7th VOYAGE OF SINBAD
GOLDEN VOYAGE OF SINBAD
JASON & THE ARGONAUTS
PORTRAIT OF JENNIE
THE UNINVITED
BLACK SUNDAY

Favourite Fantasy Books:

SHE by Rider Haggard
THE PRINCESS BRIDE by William Goldman
THE WORLD'S DESIRE by Rider Haggard
THE RETURN OF TARZAN by Edgar Rice Burroughs
Terry Pratchett's Discworld Novels

Favourite Fantasy Scripts:

My original script for DRAGONHEART
My original script for PRINCESS OF MARS

Favourite fantasy short story:

JEFTY IS FIVE by Harlan Ellison
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Charles Pogue

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2004, 12:52:51 AM »

Actually, Bruce, the actress and the director did not get along at all.   I found her self-absorbed and rather shallow from the moment she tried to get the production to pay for her luggage she bought before coming to Bratislava, but I felt the director did not help nurture her, IMHO, neglible talents with what I considered bullying tactics and denigration.  And HE chose her, after all, turning down Joley Richardson who we could have had.   I'll tell you tales privately sometime that I really can't relate in a public forum.  The whole love relationship,as you can see was jettisoned because of the director's inability to get a satisfactory performance from her in those scenes. One of which was Dennis' most heartrending, touching moment.  What a trouper he was!

I also felt that some of the dragon's wistfulness and sadness was lost because of misdirection.  A shame when you have an actor as good as Connery.  But I told you what Thewlis said.  The director could not find a subtle moment if it were riding on a float in the Rose Parade.

Oh, and I may have inverted the Producer's quote, it may have been "Rob pisses around on the script because he is jealous of you and afraid of your talent. " I don't remember exactly without looking it up. Go to the site, go to the site!  Read the forward in my script.  Oh, God, I'm so tired of re-telling all this crap.  and it just makes me want to heave.  I will tell you, I have not watch the film all the way through since it's premiere.  Can't bear to look at it.  All I see is what's wrong and what should have been.  It just breaks my heart.  It went from being what the Head of Universal called the best script that the studio had to this just so-so film.
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elmore3003

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2004, 04:04:55 AM »

Good morning, all!  I enjoyed chat immensely, BK was his usual sparkling host, and it got quite lively.

Today's topic is fantasy, and I know I'm going to omit something I truly love, but let's see what I can dredge up:

FILMS:
  DRAGONSLAYER
  DARBY O'GILL AND THE LITTLE PEOPLE
  THE THIEF OF BAGHDAD (Korda/Sabu)
  THE THIEF OF BAGHDAD (Fairbanks silent)
  ALICE IN WONDERLAND (Charlotte Henry/WC Fields/Edna Mae Oliver)
  THE LORD OF THE RINGS (all zillion hours of all 3 films)
  ON BORROWED TIME
  7th VOYAGE OF SINBAD
  THE UNINVITED (I'll steal from DR Charles Pogue here, although I prefer to consider it a ghost story/horror film, but it's one of my alltime faves)
  A MIDSUMMER NIGHT'S DREAM (Mickey Rooney/James Cagney)
  LI'L ABNER (politics, Dogpatch and Julie Newmar!)

BOOKS
  TUCK EVERLASTING
  THE UNINVITED
  TIME AND AGAIN
  ALICE IN WONDERLAND/THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS
  THE WIND IN THE WILLOWS
  BRIAR ROSE (Jane Yolen)
  BLACK THORN, WHITE ROSE and all the other contemporary fairy tale collections edited by Teri Windling and Ellen Datlow
  ANY OF THE CURRENT BOOKS ON GEORGE W BUSH (this is not a political announcement, but an assessment)

DRs Pogue, Panni, and BK, do any of you know the fantastic children's book WHAT HAPPENED IN HAMELIN? by Gloria Skurzynski?  It's a dark retelling of the Pied Piper and I'm amazed it hasn't been made into a film or tv movie.  I feel the same about Jane Yolen's BRIAR ROSE.

DR Charles Pogue, I have yet to see all of DRAGONHEART.  I took my goddaughter to see it when it was first released.  I figured since she walked around the apartment as a tyrannosaurus, she'd love the dragon.  Well, the film terrified her (she was six) and we left after 30 minutes or so.  I'm sorry.
 
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Jrand73

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2004, 05:00:56 AM »

What an interesting story from DRCharles Pogue.  Fascinating and heartbreaking.   Thanks for sharing it with us civilians!

Lovely chat last night - lots of stuff flying by!   ;D

Hmmmmmmmmmm fantasy films....hmmmmm:

The Wizard of Oz
5,000 Fingers of Dr T
Heaven Can Wait (original)
The Undead
Ali Baba and the 40 Thieves
Lost Horizon
The Red Shoes (I think it's a fantasy, I think)
...to begin with!

Adventure & fantasy books:

Dandelion Wine
Tarzan - MOST of them
When Worlds Collide
Lost Horizon

I will wait for some more choices from the DR's here at HHW!
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William E. Lurie

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2004, 05:57:23 AM »

My favorite fantasy book is "The Joy of Gay Sex".
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Kerry

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2004, 06:29:52 AM »

Fanatasy?  Isn't everything a fantasy?

My favorite fantasy films:  Top Hat, Swing Time, Hollywoood Canteen, Stage Door Canteen, Lost Horizon, ANY Andy Hardy movie
« Last Edit: March 08, 2004, 06:30:45 AM by Kerry »
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Ben

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2004, 06:55:43 AM »

Just finished listening to Donald's latest show. If you haven't yet, get over there and listen. It's wonderful. Rebecca Spencer is a funny, intelligent and talented performer. Donald, again, you did a great job with this interview.

Also, I didn't mention it a few weeks ago when our own Noel was on, but  these are the kind of interviews I love to hear. Thanks, Donald for taking the time to interview and promote people like Noel and Rebecca.

You are a "shimmering, glowing star in the radio firmament" (almost a Singin' in the Rain reference w/a slight change).
« Last Edit: March 08, 2004, 06:56:19 AM by Ben »
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MBarnum

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2004, 07:27:13 AM »

Favorite fantasy films:

Wizard of Oz
Aaya Toofan
Jack the Giant Killer
The Undead

Hmmm...that is all I can think of just now.
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Matt H.

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2004, 07:34:13 AM »

Favorite fantasy film always and forever - THE WIZARD OF OZ

Love the books, too (at least the 14 Baum wrote, but I've never read any of the others).

And I'm currently wallowing in utter joy with WICKED. I'm about 3/4 of the way through it and relishing every page.

Next favorite - PETER PAN (book and Disney film; I have not seen the latest movie incarnation)

On film I am also a HUGE fan of THE SEVEN FACES OF DR. LAO.

And needless to say, the LORD OF THE RINGS trilogy and the first two HARRY POTTER films.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2004, 07:35:55 AM by Matt H. »
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DERBRUCER

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2004, 07:46:09 AM »

TOD:

Films:
Something Wicked This Way Comes
Harry Potter
Lord of the Rings
Edward Scissorhands
Nightmare Before Christmas
Bell, Book and Candle
Bedknobs and Broomsticks
Around the World in Eighty Days
Blithe Spirit
The Ghost and Mrs. Muir
Brigadoon
Harvey
King Kong (Original)
Sleepy Hollow
Ghost (1990)
Ghostbusters
Wizard of Oz
Mary Poppins
Meet Joe Black
Sixth Sense
Time Machine (Original)
ET
Back to the Future
(The last three on the Fantasy/Science Fiction cusp)

Books:
Harry Potter
Princess Bride
Princess of Mars, et al.
Last Gondolier
Almost every Fairy Tale Collection (pick a color!)
Magic Inc.
Various and Sundried Collections of Short Stories (Simack, Bloch, Lovecraft - special favorite: W.W.Jacob's "The Monkey's Paw")

der Brucer (whose escapist reading as a youngster was concentrated in mysteries and Science Fiction - Heinlein Rules!)
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bk

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2004, 08:14:13 AM »

Pogue: I reprinted your post here, didn't you see it?  It's post number two, which occurs after post number one, or before post number three, however you look at it.

Remember those days when the East Coast Hainsies/Kimlets would all complain because I would usually put up the notes between eight and nine?  Now, they go up at midnight my time, and yet, lately there are never people here in the morning when I log on.  Should I go back to putting them up in the morning?
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Jane

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2004, 08:40:03 AM »

I can't stay.  Keith has to clear this laptop and return it to the store.  If we are lucky he will find a new laptop he likes, or get a loaner while our computer is in the shop, and I will return tonight.

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DERBRUCER

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2004, 08:42:08 AM »

A tale of joy:

Working people frequently ask retired people what they do to make their days interesting. Thought you'd might like to see what happened to me last week.

I went to the store the other day. I was only in there for about 5 minutes. When I came out there was a city cop writing out a parking ticket. I went up to him and said, "Come on, buddy, how about giving a senior a break?"

He ignored me and continued writing the ticket. I called him a Nazi. He glared at me and started writing another ticket for having worn tires. So I called him a piece of horse dung. He finished the second ticket and put it on the windshield with the first. Then he started writing a third ticket.

This went on for about 20 minutes.. the more I abused him, the more tickets he wrote. I didn't give a crap. My car was parked around the corner.

I try to have a little fun each day, it's important at my age.

der plagerizing-from-anon Brucer
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William F. Orr

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2004, 08:43:20 AM »

BK, I think I finished off last night's message board with a long rant about my woes on DRAGONHEART (not nearly long enough...I kept a journal during the filming that is nearly 400,000 words long.  Someday maybe it will see the light of day.  Certainly a useful document of how a writer is treated and all the more strange since it was a writer of a much-lauded script.)

Well, Mr. Charles Pogue, I would suggest turning it into a screenplay, as I think a film about the unmaking of your screenplay might have great possibilities.  Not as bloody as the story of Jesus, perhaps, but a real horror story to be sure.  And think of the libel suits!  You can't buy that kind of publicity, as some wag once said.
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DERBRUCER

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2004, 08:48:00 AM »

Pogue: I reprinted your post here, didn't you see it?  It's post number two, which occurs after post number one, or before post number three, however you look at it.


Well the way I look at it is:

It is post number 10, which occurs after post number 1, or before post number 11.

BINARY RULES!

der anti-hexadecimal Brucer
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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2004, 08:51:11 AM »

I like having the New Notes when I get up at 5 a.m.!

What a funny story DRderB....well not funny for some stranger!

And of course DRMattH and DB have reminded me of LORD OF THE RINGS trilogy - the movies and BLITHE SPIRIT....I loaned my video of that movie and it never came back...one of those...."oh, I gave it back to you...I know I did...."  Hmmmmmmmm.....what can you say except, "No you didn't, you liar..." ....except nothing.
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elmore3003

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2004, 08:52:49 AM »

Dahlink BK,  I like getting up early and reading the new column.  If you post it at midnight, PST, it's 3 am here.  I'm usually online by 7:00 am and there are usually 2 or 3 ahead of me.  I often don't post, if I do, until later, but I'd hate to wait until noon EST for your latest whimsy!  Of course, at 7 am, I'm not thinking clearly (don't say a word):  how could I have forgotten such great films as KING KONG and MARY POPPINS?  

I was going to post favorite fantasy musicals as well but I forgot:
BABES IN TOYLAND
STEPPING STONES  (Red Riding Hood)
BRIGADOON (hate the film!)
FLAHOOLEY
THE ARCADIANS
CAROUSEL
THE APPLE TREE
DEAR WORLD
A CONNECTICUT YANKEE
I MARRIED AN ANGEL
FINIAN'S RAINBOW
OUT OF THIS WORLD
ROCKY HORROR SHOW
CANDIDE (a stretch, but people killed in one scene return later)

And what do we consider Julie Andrews' great CINDERELLA?


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Panni

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2004, 08:53:17 AM »

Good morning. Would FREDDY THE PIG count as a fantasy book? Do pigs talk? No. Then it is and I shall name all the Freddy books my favorite fantasy books. I also like dark fairy tales - the REAL ones, not the pc versions. And THE LION, THE WITCH AND THE WARDROBE.
Movies - I'll have to think about that -- many that I like have already been mentioned. I'm not a huge fan of "big' fantasy films. Prefer THE GHOST AND MRS MUIR"... that kind of thing.

As for adventure movies and books... I've always liked Tarzan. Even got to write a Tarzan movie for television which had some decent moments, but I rarely include on my resume. (Tony Curtis played Archie, Jane's father, and he was a hoot. On purpose.) There are others, to which I'll get back later.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2004, 08:56:44 AM by Panni »
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Noel

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2004, 09:04:09 AM »

MARY POPPINS
CAROUSEL
THE APPLE TREE
A CONNECTICUT YANKEE
I MARRIED AN ANGEL
FINIAN'S RAINBOW

As I've explained before, fantasy's not my genre, but I'll agree with elmore's choices above.

I hope everybody - especially Charles Pogue - has seen the back page of the recent New Yorker in which Steve Martin reveals the studio's script notes on The Passion of Christ.   8)
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Matt H.

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2004, 09:26:03 AM »

Certainly CINDERELLA is a wonderful fantasy as is ALICE IN WONDERLAND. Whether done by DIsney or R&H in the case of the former, they are wonderful entertainments. In my own little world, the ones I mentioned might rank a "smidge" higher, but that's not to say those are great, wonderful, joyous fantasies.

And I was delighted to read the Julie original TV version of CINDERELLA might be coming to DVD this year. How wonderful though, of course, it was the Lesley Ann Warren version that I grew up with. Each has its strong points (such as Stuart Damon's stalwart prince with the extra song cut from SOUTH PACIFIC and which I just love in the Warren version).
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JoseSPiano

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2004, 09:33:44 AM »

Good Afternoon!

I'm back home in Richmond.  Whew!  More choppy skies this morning.  UGH!  Going to take a nap in a little bit.  :)

Topic of the Day:

Books:
C.S. Lewis - Chronicles of Narnia series
Madeleine L'Engle - Wrinkle in Time series
-Both of these series were great reads as a young adult, and are still great reads as an "old" adult.

Movies:
The only one that comes to my mind is Like Water for Chocolate.  -And the book is wonderful too.

I'll most likely post more after my very well-deserved, and very much-needed snooze...

See you in my dreams.  ;)
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Ron Pulliam

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2004, 09:49:52 AM »

Favorite Fantasy Films:

Lord of the Rings trilogy
Field of Dreams
A Matter of Time (aka Stairway to Heaven)
Wizard of Oz
Here Comes Mr. Jordan
..and many others already mentioned...
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Measure your life by moments that take your breath away, not by the breaths you take in a moment.

Panni

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2004, 09:52:48 AM »

The film JUDAS, about which I posted an article last week, has been getting terrible reviews, I'm afraid. I'll tape it and check it out for myself.

FS Pogue - How's your rewrite going?
Mine is supposed to go in to the network today. We'll see. I have a bet going as to whether I get one more call from the producers, who read it over the weekend, for "just a few little changes before it goes in." (I've already rewritten the rewrite three times.)
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DERBRUCER

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2004, 09:55:34 AM »

Movies:
The only one that comes to my mind is Like Water for Chocolate.  -And the book is wonderful too.


I'm surprised you didn't pick "Willy Wonka"!
Of course "Como agua para chocolate" is filled with sex, cooking, eating; more sex cooking and eating, embelished with additional sex, cooking and eating - and all in Spanish - so I see the attraction!

der Brucer

PS This "charming" R-rated culinary fantasy has the following IMDB Keywords:

food
texas
vomit
wedding
1910s
1930s
adultery
based-on-novel
cooking
ghost
love
narration
1890s
self-immolation
suicide
supernatural
female-frontal-nudity
female-nudity
shower-scene
dying-during-sex
heart-attack
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DERBRUCER

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Re:THOUGHT PROVOKING
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2004, 09:58:11 AM »

I’d like to add “The Secret Garden” to my list of fantasy favorites, unfortunately my only exposure to same was the Broadway show.

The subject of Secret Garden was brought up by the household chef who remarked that Rebecca Luker (a member of BK’s stable group of favorite people with whom to record) has a new album coming out (“Leaving Home”) in which she does a duet (“Wick”) with Alison Frasier, also of TSG fame.

Note: In “The Secret Garden”, Luker played “Lucy” and Fraser played “Martha”, the song sung here, “Wick”, was sung in the show by John Cameron Mitchell in his pre-op days.

Note, also,  the TSS stars SWWs favorite (I really saw his bare ass on stage!) school chum, Robert Westenberg.

Der Brucer (who has ordered a copy of “Leaving Home” direct from the publisher so SWW can be the first kid on the block to own one)
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We live in a universe not of clocks but of clouds.
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